the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Recently I came across this Chinese youtube channel which gives informative demonstrations as to the difference between traditional fighting methods, particularly Xingyi, and those of modern sanda/ kickboxing.

This video is a good example of the channels content: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQNBN6ETq8U

While the videos are in mandarin, the physical displays speak for themselves. Xingyi, as this instructor has it, closes the gap, takes out the space and finishes the opponent with close powerful strikes while the opponent is off balance. Makes sense to me!

What has become increasingly apparent to me from working with MMA practitioners. Is that internal martial art is not made for grappling or striking when either is treated separate from the other. It seems to be common in MMA to train grappling and then train striking as two separate disciplines before combing them. Internal martial art, and perhaps traditional martial art in general, seems to only truly make sense when grappling and striking are combined fluently. My experience is that TCMA is all about that ambiguous fluid space between striking and grappling. In a pure grappling competition (jiu-jistsu) as in a pure striking competition (kickboxing), much of Taiji, Xingyi, or Bagua loses its context and thus its natural application.

rojcewiczj wrote:strikes while the opponent is off balance.

2 things that I don't like.

1. strikes while the opponent is off balance - When you strike an off balanced opponent, most of your power will be yielded by his off balance. In stead of pushing your opponent away and punch him, You should pull him into your punch. The preying mantis Gou Lou Cai Shou explain that well.

In the following clip, it's easy to see a lot of power can be landed on his opponent's face.



2. His guarding hands are too close to his own head. This will give his opponent too much free space. If you can put your fists in front of your opponent's face, not only he can't see very well, he doesn't have much space to generate his punching power. IMO, it's batter to fight in your opponent's territory than to fight in your own territory.

May be this is the major difference between the striker's strategy and the wrestler's strategy.

- Striker likes to put his hands next to his own head for 2 purposes, to protect his own head and ready to punch out.
- Wrestler likes to put his hands next to his opponent's head also for 2 purposes, to jam his opponent's space and ready to clinch.

A lot of boxers would be out of a job if you can't hit an off balanced opponent with power

wayne hansen wrote:A lot of boxers would be out of a job if you can't hit an off balanced opponent with power

Which way do you think is easier to break a matchbox?

- throw it in the air and punch it.
- put it on the ground and step on it.

The whole statement of “Xingyi, as this instructor has it, closes the gap, takes out the space and finishes the opponent with close powerful strikes while the opponent is off balance.“ is erroneous imo.

The practice dummy’s reactions (trying to not move and leaning onto one foot etc) have nothing to do with reality.

So instead of continuing on about that faulty premise, let us maybe discuss some ideas that are actually shown in the video: like the use of ‘Heng’ (crossing) is a really cool idea. I wonder though if it would actually hold up against another skilled western boxer. What do you all think?

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D_Glenn wrote:the use of ‘Heng’ (crossing) is a really cool idea. I wonder though if it would actually hold up against another skilled western boxer. What do you all think?

The boxing is 100% striking art. The wrestling is 100% throwing art. The CMA is a integration of striking art and throwing art.

For example, in

- boxing, a punch is just a punch. In CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a pull.
- wrestling, one use clinch to set up throw. In CMA, one uses kick to set up punch, use punch to set up clinch, use clinch to set up throw.

To compart CMA with boxing or wrestling is not proper IMO.

The videos seem to be all about adapting xingyi to a boxing/ kickboxing match. And it’s hard to grab someone with those gloves on.

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Assume your goal is combat and your path is sport. Your path should not make your gaol harder to reach. If you only stay on the boxing path, you will never be able to reach to the goal of kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration.

johnwang wrote:Assume your goal is combat and your path is sport. Your path should not make your gaol harder to reach. If you only stay on the boxing path, you will never be able to reach to the goal of kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration.

What if your goal is to live in peace as long as possible?

boxing is not a 100% striking art. I don't know if wrestling is 100% grappling either. there are a lot of "dirty boxing" techniques that probably all the boxers know. it's down to a decision of how much you should bend or break the rules, and a decision of the ref. we see boxers frequently clinch, but they won't necessarily employ the "dirty boxing" techniques. I don't know anything about boxing, but this can be found on the internet and seen in plain view and heard in the commentary.

no, xingyi isn't going to work. imho. it comes from the spear. it's not designed as empty hand art.

I know a lot of people mention that Hsig I comes from the spear
I can see spear techniques in Hsing I
But is there any proof of this or is it just a way to connect it to Yue Fei
I know that both eagle claw and Hsing I claim him as a founder

oragami_itto wrote:What if your goal is to live in peace as long as possible?

You set your own goal and you find a path to reach to it.

everything wrote:no, xingyi isn't going to work. imho. it comes from the spear. it's not designed as empty hand art.

Akaik people stopped fighting with spears over 100 years ago, and since then there’s been generations of people learning, teaching, developing and using xingyi solely as an empty hand martial art.
Jus sayin’

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it seems obvious when u pick up a staff where it came from . it just seems so good in its area

rojcewiczj wrote:Recently I came across this Chinese youtube channel which gives informative demonstrations as to the difference between traditional fighting methods, particularly Xingyi, and those of modern sanda/ kickboxing.

This video is a good example of the channels content: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQNBN6ETq8U

While the videos are in mandarin, the physical displays speak for themselves. Xingyi, as this instructor has it, closes the gap, takes out the space and finishes the opponent with close powerful strikes while the opponent is off balance. Makes sense to me!

That is not much difference from modern MMA. MMAist with grappling backgrounds "close the gap" by integrating sticking, trapping and striking.

rojcewiczj wrote:My experience is that TCMA is all about that ambiguous fluid space between striking and grappling. In a pure grappling competition (jiu-jistsu) as in a pure striking competition (kickboxing), much of Taiji, Xingyi, or Bagua loses its context and thus its natural application.

. . . And, there lies the problem when a TCMAist gets beat by the average MMAist. Many times, the MMAist starts controlling the TCMAist before the "space between striking and grappling." By the time contact is made, the TCMAist is already defeated.

D_Glenn wrote:The practice dummy’s reactions (trying to not move and leaning onto one foot etc) have nothing to do with reality.

Yes, he didn't really demonstrate how to "close the gap, take out the space and finish the opponent" against a moving, resisting, attacking opponent.

D_Glenn wrote:So instead of continuing on about that faulty premise, let us maybe discuss some ideas that are actually shown in the video: like the use of ‘Heng’ (crossing) is a really cool idea. I wonder though if it would actually hold up against another skilled western boxer. What do you all think?

Depending on which point in the video you're speaking of, it might be slower. I've posted videos of Lomachenko trapping, side stepping and punching. Also, George Foreman side stepping and delivering an uppercut.

Knockout impact is greater when the opponent walks into a punch, rather than away. A common counter to a straight right is simultaneous slip and punch—which borrows the opponent's head-on force and uses it against him.

D_Glenn wrote:The videos seem to be all about adapting xingyi to a boxing/ kickboxing match. And it’s hard to grab someone with those gloves on.

Well, UFC will be completing it's largest UFC Performance Institute in Shanghai, this year. So, this xingyi guy can test his methods in open MMA rules with light, fingerless gloves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGb_n2pOMII

Some clips and comments from another website on Tony Ferguson using wing chun in a recent fight (10/06/18) vs. Pettis.

How wing chun works in real fights ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5prlwv1yURk

Classic Wing Chun - pak sau, pak sau (slapping hand trapping) then overhand elbow in close:


Opponent on fence, usually you see a boxing flurry in this situation or else pushing against the cage to clinch, maybe go for a thai plum. Alternative is post the hand to get your range and step in with nasty elbows and forearms:


Double lap jut sau, notice he reaches forward and pulls down the hands to clear them then uses the momentum to step in with the elbow. Type of thing you can drill in chi sau

Close range telephone box relentless offence with nasty wing chun elbows and hand trapping/parrying combined with boxing: