Traditional fighting method

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:21 pm

Every time he says ‘hung’ in the video and uses his forearm to hit the guy’s guard, is what I’m talking about. The whole entirety of the video is about using hung/ heng to set up subsequent punches. I would have to list about 60 different time stamps, so it might be easier to just watch with sound on, and know what the heng quan is in xyq so you know what you’re watching for.
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:56 am

D_Glenn wrote:Every time he says ‘hung’ in the video and uses his forearm to hit the guy’s guard, is what I’m talking about. The whole entirety of the video is about using hung/ heng to set up subsequent punches. I would have to list about 60 different time stamps, so it might be easier to just watch with sound on, and know what the heng quan is in xyq so you know what you’re watching for.

Ok. I do "know what the heng quan is." Watch both the feeders and demonstrators in the following clips.

Here the feeder is "trying to not move and leaning onto one foot." There is no weight shift from one leg to another. There is no luring or listening by the demonstrator. The opponent can see him aggressively reaching for his arm and side stepping. Once the heng touches the guard, the feeder shifts his weight to the back foot and backs away. As the demonstrator continues to push the feeder away, he follows up with punches—that have less impact. The attacker does not demonstrate luring/how to get the opponent to double weight (freeze), listening, borrowing the opponent's force, timing, distance, etc:

Image

Watch both Cooney and Foreman at least a dozen times each. Both start from opposite sides of the ring (distance). Foreman, a southpaw, walks straight towards Cooney (at a relaxed pace but forward pressure nonetheless), lowers his left arm and shows an uppercut. Cooney reacts by shifting his weight (rocking) from his rear leg to his front leg and covering up (defense). While Cooney's weight is on his front left leg (unable to change), Foreman listens, changes his pace making a quick step forward to the right with his right foot, lands a left uppercut using spiral energy and cross body power (per Robert Tangora) with his right elbow pulling back. Then, Foreman (from the side door) turns, maintains his fast pace and follows up with a straight right, as Cooney falls to the canvas.

Foreman's punch is faster, more deceptive, harder to counter, better timing, more powerful and demonstrates more skill, than what the xingyi guy shows. But, many people will not understand and miss the skills while saying, "that's just boxing, it's a sport, trading punches, they're wearing gloves, didn't trap, didn't unbalance, not internal, not traditional, etc:"

Image
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:07 am

Nice find!

Thanks for posting the original vid.

The off balancing thing is much more prevalent in some Xingyi or Xinyi animals than others. I’m currently going through a bit of a bear eagle obsession and that uses off balancing all the time. However if you look at something like snake then not so much.

It’s hard to do xy with those big gloves on - not impossible but hard. I thought it was funny that he just got rid of them half way through the video :)

And I agree that Tai Chi Chuan is grappling and striking combined - it suffers badly if you take one of those away, whereas Xingyi (in theory) should be just fine in a striking-only environment.
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:11 am

Btw the Forman clip is fantastic - a great example of just being in the zone - appropriate technique at the appropriate time. I don’t think that was planned in advance.
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:02 am

Here are a couple recent xingyi sparring videos. You can see the difference in footwork between the OP demo and when an opponent is moving.

kingoffist
Published on Feb 16, 2019:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zvZB_HITBM

kingoffist
Published on Feb 16, 2019:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDlat09oPmg
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:31 am

marvin8 wrote:Image

[edited for clarity] I’m not disparaging Foreman at all, but that’s after almost 5 minutes of previous softening up and pummeling of Coomey, and then he’s knocked the f out by that uppercut, the second punch was unnecessary, he was already falling down. But that could be a good tactic: first attack of a fight- use an uppercut.

In the interest of discussion and some comparison, in the xingyi video he uses a heng then an uppercut at: 1:13

.
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:56 am

D_Glenn wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Image

Not disparaging Foreman at all, but that’s almost 5 minutes of softening up and pummeling of Coomey, and he’s knocked the f out by that uppercut, the second punch was unnecessary, he was already falling down. But that could be a good tactic: first attack of a fight- use an uppercut.

In the interest of discussion and some comparison, in the xingyi video he uses a heng then an uppercut at: 1:13

.

Earlier you stated, "I would have to list about 60 different time stamps." So, I chose the first time "he says ‘hung’ in the video and uses his forearm to hit the guy’s guard" at :46. I made gifs, discussed and compared them in detail.

"In the interest of discussion," can you elaborate and compare besides, "he uses a heng then an uppercut?"

GrahamB wrote:Btw the Forman clip is fantastic - a great example of just being in the zone - appropriate technique at the appropriate time. I don’t think that was planned in advance.

Yes, it may have just been through training and/or fight experience.
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby Steve James on Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:52 am

If this is about "traditional" fighting methods, I wonder if there weren't conditions that could be expected. For ex., the reason western boxers use gloves is to avoid hand injuries. How did traditional fighters avoid them if they used closed fists?

If there was grappling, then how were matches decided? There may be "finishing" moves, but the percentage of fighters who are "finished" after bouts must be small, or the sport wouldn't survive. So, were the contests like mma? Granted that real "fights" would be whatever worked at the time.

Afa Foreman's punch, his opponent's hands were high --expecting a head shot. Foreman's left came from below. It was the "punch he didn't see coming." However, that second punch to the head did him in completely.

Side note: if you ever watch Foreman talk about his fight with Ali (the Rumble in the Jungle), he'll say that Ali was the greatest because of the punch he did not take. Foreman was on his way down, and Ali did not hit him again. "Any other boxer would have taken that shot," said Foreman. "That's why he'll be the greatest of all time to me."
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:19 am

Re: marvin
I haven’t boxed, so my opinions have no standing and I have no frame of reference.

I’m simply asking: if someone has boxed, (trained boxing for X amount of time; participated in X number of matches) then reply whether you think this application of Heng would work in an actual boxing or kickboxing match.

***
Re: Steve
I’m pretty sure that the whole boxing gloves vs bare fists has been argued at least a couple times in massive 10 page threads on that specific topic alone.
And the type of traditional empty hand fighting, in China, for spectators was done as makeshift no- holds barred lei tei fights, where individual personality traits were the major determiners in the fight. My great grandteacher was a wealthy moral man, who would seek clean wins and would only attempt to inflict injuries that could be easily fixed, and being a doctor he would also treat his opponent’s injuries and compensate his wages for any time that he had to miss work, until his injuries were healed. The other end of the spectrum was criminally minded fighters who would do anything they could to maim their opponent and end their martial arts careers. Then every type of fighter in between those extremes.
That said, I don’t think these are the sort of topics, or tangents that the OP had in mind, as this is all BTDT.

I believe it’s meant to be about applying traditional Chinese ma to boxing or kickboxing, and restraining it to those rulesets.

.
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:36 am

Steve James wrote:Afa Foreman's punch, his opponent's hands were high --expecting a head shot. Foreman's left came from below. It was the "punch he didn't see coming." However, that second punch to the head did him in completely.

Thanks for mentioning that.

As they are walking towards each other, George flashes his right hand a little to the left in front of his face (luring skill). Cooney reacts by stopping, shifting his weight to the back foot and bringing his hands up (controlled), later lowering them. As they get closer, Cooney raise his hands again, slips to his left, lowering his weight to the front leg (sort of double weighted)—expecting to slip to the outside of George's straight right. As Cooney's hands are raising and head moving down, George sees this (reading skill} and quicken's his pace lowering the left uppercut (timing skill) out of Cooney's sight. Then, George KO's Cooney by meeting Cooney's head's downward force with the upward force of his uppercut (timing, borrowing force skill).
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby Steve James on Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:44 pm

I believe it’s meant to be about applying traditional Chinese ma to boxing or kickboxing, and restraining it to those rulesets.


My point was that the context would determine what could be used. I understand that the idea is how to applying tcma in a boxing or kickboxing setting, and I'm saying that it will be similar to boxing and kickboxing. I.e., the requirement of gloves inevitably modifies technique.

If tcmas illustrate the traditional way people fought, then it's designed for that because it's the way people fought. People don't fight that way anymore. I'm not sure that it's useful to think in terms of applying tcma (strikes and throws, for ex) in contemporary combat sports because the competitor will need to practice the fundamentals of how to apply strikes and throws --i.e., hit and be hit, etc., that all competitors will have to practice.

Iow, a front kick is a front kick, a straight punch (no matter the style) is a straight punch. Application, imo, means landing that kick or punch. How does a tcc practitioner punch a boxer? Rhetorical question: it requires a strategy for delivery. I think that it's generally agreed that tcc practitioners, in particular, but generally, don't train punching and kicking the way that muay thai people do. Muay thai has a great straight front kick, too. Well, this gets back to the issue of training with equipment, like heavy bags. We know who does use them, and the results they demonstrate.

That's why I'm not clear about the problem of applying the art. If you are going to a competition, the question is how you know (or think) your art is going to work. You know that you will or won't be putting on gloves. That you will or won't be able to throw. The most basic things you can do is practice striking and sparring. That really takes more will than skill.

It's easy to pick a few strikes and practice them a lot. One can go learn shuai jiao if one wants to stick to tradition Chinese wrestling. That'll involve a lot of practice on its own. Sure, one can practice the possible put downs in "the form" if one wants to be a purist. The guy that Marvin (?) posted about is a good example. Tim Cartmell is another, even if he also studied bjj. Otoh, these guys are professionals who spend their lives doing it.

Bill Wallace won many professional kickboxing championships, and he could only kick with one leg.
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby everything on Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:27 pm

I've lost track of what we're trying to talk about. If it's TMA in combat sports, obviously people like Machida showed some good stuff already. People like Jon Jones have mined for various things and showed off their repertoire. If it's TCMA in boxing, it just seems like such a btdt topic. Boxing already has styles (mayweather jr.'s is totally different from tyson's), but "boxing" is already the best art for that ruleset, as shown empirically over a large dataset. However "boxing" is not necessarily the best art for another ruleset. I don't track mma any more, but after the initial bjj phase, then the gnp phase, striking was taking over (more wins by ko and tko than by submission) for some number of years, for example.
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:14 pm

The young teacher in the video is a Xingyi guy based in China. He started out doing Sanda and Shuaijiao, and later on began to cross-train in Xingyi. His Xingyi is from Shang Yunxiang's lineage, and quite similar to what I learned from my Gao Bagua teacher in terms of flavor and usage. (My grandteacher and his father both knew Shang Yuxiang personally, and used to compare notes with him in their hometown in Shangdong Province. They also incorporated some of the elements of his Xingyi into their Gao bagua.)

The OP's clip is meant to show that Xingyi's Tiger Pouncing and Horizontal Pi Chuan are also found in boxing, and how they can be applied with Xingyi flavor and body mechanics in the ring.

I have been following his Chinese vlog for about 2 years and enjoyed the materials he's put forth a lot. This guy spars, fights, and is also pretty handy with Xingyi weapons. The real deal, if you ask me.

Here he talks about the differences in application between Japanese kendo and Xingyi sabre:
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby everything on Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:36 pm

that looks like fun, and how one would actually be able to understand 5 elements in a safe, uncooperative, resistance way.

side note: isn't it just great that adidas soccer/football pants and even the looser pants are so popular now? they've been missing for decades!
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Re: Traditional fighting method

Postby marvin8 on Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:06 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Re: marvin
I haven’t boxed, so my opinions have no standing and I have no frame of reference.

I’m simply asking: if someone has boxed, (trained boxing for X amount of time; participated in X number of matches) then reply whether you think this application of Heng would work in an actual boxing or kickboxing match.

Another reason the specific application of heng, at :47 of the OP video in the clip I posted, would not "work in an actual boxing match" is: pushing is against the rules of boxing. He would get warned, points taken away, then disqualified. (I am not opining on other parts of the OP video or variations of heng.)

rojcewiczj wrote:Recently I came across this Chinese youtube channel which gives informative demonstrations as to the difference between traditional fighting methods, particularly Xingyi, and those of modern sanda/ kickboxing.

You may be misunderstanding that Chinese youtube channel. Instead of demonstrating "the difference between traditional fighting methods and those of modern sanda/ kickboxing," per C.J.W (if I am correct), the Chinese channel is demonstrating similarities in movements and energies in combat sports:
C.J.W. wrote:The OP's clip is meant to show that Xingyi's Tiger Pouncing and Horizontal Pi Chuan are also found in boxing, and how they can be applied with Xingyi flavor and body mechanics in the ring.

Likewise, I posted clips of Tony Ferguson successfully applying TCMA (wing chun) in MMA. Some see the similarities between TCMA and modern combat sports, others don't.

Rackemann explains, in his video ""Adapting Wing Chun Techniques For Boxing," similar movements and energies can be found in wing chun and boxing.

Kwan Sau — Mayweather:
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Gum Sau — Golovkin:
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Lan Sau — Mayweather:
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Lap Sau — Lomachenko:
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