Censorship on tai chi sites

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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby Appledog on Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:58 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:As John clearly shows, the ultimate expression of the power in brush knee requires lifting the back heel just from a biomechanical POV and from the POV of expressing it in a fighting format. Biomechanically keeping the heel down prevents that hip from extending forward, limiting the power of the strike. In application, not lifting the heel limits your range in the punch. A lifted heel will get you another 2-3" easy if not more. The opponent will not just stand there at the exact spot that allows you to express any given shenfa you happen to be practicing. Their whole job is to move, disrupt what you're doing, and defeat you. Form doesn't address this at all.


This is actually completely wrong from a Tai Chi standpoint. In fact the point of keeping the heel down is to facilitate exactly what you are saying it does not facilitate (to prevent the opponent from moving away via speed and reach). If you are lifting up the heel during BKTS you are doing it wrong. I know this always sounds contentious when I break in like this but this isn't an opinion, it's a fact-- and yes I understand what you mean by it being biomechanically required. Nevertheless, and I find this fascinating, where this opinion on Tai Chi about lifting up the heel came from, since it is just wrong.

Compare (a) https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/7c/d6 ... 90820f.jpg and (b) http://www.shouyuliang.com/images/newsl ... 1/a5p1.jpg -- note the position of the heel. This is the same basic technique executed in two extremely different ways.

Formosa Neijia wrote:This is another reason why "he's just using arm" doesn't work as a critique. If the opponent is close then the need for overt body mechanics is lessened. And I thought these were "internal" arts, anyway? Why is it everyone expects what's supposed to be going on "internally" to be so blantantly epxressed "externally"? To be successful at fighting you have to hide some of those mechanics in order to not telegraph your moves to the opponent.


I first learned to fajin properly through practising BKTS. fa (release) jin (energy). Like releasing an arrow. What is being talked about here with the heel rising up is not an internal technique and is being promoted out of the fear that the real way does not "really work". If the "internal" way "really works" then you should not need to lift your heel up off the ground to gain speed, momentum or reach.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:11 am

Appledog wrote:the heel rising up is not an internal technique ...

This has nothing to do with "internal" or external. It's "distance management".

When you use brush knee, you end with bow-arrow stance. If your opponent moves back, you can slide your back foot forward to gain that extra distance. You may end with

- monkey stance (back heel up),
- side cat stance (back toes down), or even
- golden rooster stance (back leg up).

The "distance management" is the general CMA issue. It's above all CMA styles include Taiji. The monkey (or unicorn) stance is a valid CMA stance.

Image

Last edited by johnwang on Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby LaoDan on Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:37 pm

oragami_itto wrote:This has gotten ridiculous.

Do a proper brush knee with both hands, weight shifts, and turns. Compare what that feels like to what Matt is doing in his video. Or even just do the part with the cross side moving forward, but keep the whole body involved.

Do they feel the same? Even remotely similar? To me they feel drastically different, posturally and energetically, no question about it.

Which isn't to say what Matt's doing isn't valid or isn't found within the body of taijiquan, just that I don't think Brush Knee and Twist Step in any way or part expresses it.

And then you talk of lifting heels? How much of a thing can you change and still call it that thing? Why bother when there may be more accurate terms? Double weighting isn't just a physical phenomenon.

“A proper brush knee” sounds quite limited. From one technique one should be able to extrapolate to hundreds. We should be careful to avoid becoming complacent in the comfort of our habits.

“How much of a thing can you change and still call it that thing?” Well, I think that one should be able to extrapolate to using brush knee for pushing, punching, throwing, heel up or down, stationary rear foot or pivoting on the heel, follow step or not, Yang flavor, Chen flavor, Wu flavor, etc. Can’t they all be possible while using Taijiquan principles and all be correct even though they are all different? Is Yang’s brush knee no longer Chen’s side walk & twist step? I do not know – does it matter?
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:43 pm

Well, why bother with the rest of the postures at all, then? Just do brush knee twist step and call it a day, since any kind of movement you can do with a human body can be extrapolated from it, the rest is just redundant.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:14 pm

Everything is a variation of ward off,Roll back,press or withdraw and push
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby Trick on Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:12 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Everything is a variation of ward off,Roll back,press or withdraw and push

yes, its suprisingly that so many(taiji practitioners?)seem not to see this
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:49 pm

Which is my point exactly. Why call this isolated arm movement brush knee? It could be seen as more fundamental, or another variation, but brush knee does not seem to fit.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:57 pm

Back heel up is various places in the two San shou forms
It is also in the sun style
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:11 pm

Nobody has answered my question yet.

When you use brush knee, if your opponent moves back, your bow-arrow stance brush knee cannot hit him, but your monkey (unicorn) stance brush knee can. Will you slide in your back foot with heel up into monkey (unicorn) stance?

You have already borrowed the counter force from the ground through the back leg. The power is in your momentum. Your back foot no longer need to be on the ground. When the bullet flies out of the gun, the contact between the bullet and the gun is no longer needed.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:12 pm

We call that "please kick me in the balls" stance.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby marvin8 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:03 pm

oragami_itto wrote:This has gotten ridiculous. . . .

And then you talk of lifting heels? How much of a thing can you change and still call it that thing?
Appledog wrote: If you are lifting up the heel during BKTS you are doing it wrong. I know this always sounds contentious when I break in like this but this isn't an opinion, it's a fact-- and yes I understand what you mean by it being biomechanically required. Nevertheless, and I find this fascinating, where this opinion on Tai Chi about lifting up the heel came from, since it is just wrong.

Compare (a) https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/7c/d6 ... 90820f.jpg and (b) http://www.shouyuliang.com/images/newsl ... 1/a5p1.jpg -- note the position of the heel. This is the same basic technique executed in two extremely different ways. . . .

What is being talked about here with the heel rising up is not an internal technique and is being promoted out of the fear that the real way does not "really work". If the "internal" way "really works" then you should not need to lift your heel up off the ground to gain speed, momentum or reach.

Besides Chen Ziqiang, here are more "lifting up the heel" from oragami_itto's sifu Adam Mizner, Feng Zhiqiang and from Chen Village: Chen Jian Qiang, Han Feilong. Are their "lifting heels ridiculous, not tai chi, just wrong and not an internal technique?"

Adam Mizner:
Image

Feng Zhiqiang:
Image

Chen Jian Qiang:
Image
Image

Han Feilong:
Image[/quote]
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:34 pm

Don't worry about all them there is nothing more internal than San shou forms and there is plenty of heel up follow stepping there
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby Trick on Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:04 am

johnwang wrote:Nobody has answered my question yet.

When you use brush knee, if your opponent moves back, your bow-arrow stance brush knee cannot hit him, but your monkey (unicorn) stance brush knee can. Will you slide in your back foot with heel up into monkey (unicorn) stance?

You have already borrowed the counter force from the ground through the back leg. The power is in your momentum. Your back foot no longer need to be on the ground. When the bullet flies out of the gun, the contact between the bullet and the gun is no longer needed.

Image

yours avatar is more BKTS than any of your posted reverse-punch pics of which has absolutely noting to do with BKTS....why so many just seem to see the end postures of the sequences that build up the taiji forms ?? ist as people just go throu an YCF picture-book 8-)
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby Bao on Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:09 am

You have already borrowed the counter force from the ground through the back leg. The power is in your momentum. Your back foot no longer need to be on the ground. When the bullet flies out of the gun, the contact between the bullet and the gun is no longer needed.


I am not sure that I would always agree 100%. But I would agree more close to 100% if you mean that the whole body acts like the bullet and not fist only. What gives the best power depends on mechanics, what kind of power you want to put in, and it depends on when the foot or heel lifts up.

Image


I sincerely doubt that these guys use ground force or know how to put in the whole body when they strike here in this picture.

...

OT, but it's funny... how people generalise martial artists from different arts...

"These guys practice Karate, they must surely know how to punch hard!"
or
"These guys practice Tai Chi. Tai Chi guys don't know how to punch!"

;D
Last edited by Bao on Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:36 am

Marvin, Adam Mizner is not my Sifu. I know accuracy in your statement is not a huge concern, but please do not spread blatant falsehoods.

I asked how much of a thing (bkts) you can change and still call it that thing, and in response you post a bunch of things that are not bkts. Thanks for proving my point.

But it's your practice so you can call wherever you want whatever you like and it makes no nevermind to me. This discussion is dumb.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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