Censorship on tai chi sites

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:15 am

oragami_itto wrote:His online/video course is fantastic, and if you are aware of a better one I would definitely appreciate the tip and follow up on it.
oragami_itto wrote:Marvin, Adam Mizner is not my Sifu. I know accuracy in your statement is not a huge concern, but please do not spread blatant falsehoods.

You said you studied Mizner's "online/video course." Therefore, you are a student of Mizner's and he is one of your teachers or sifus. Which part is "not accurate" or a "falsehood?"

oragami_itto wrote:I asked how much of a thing (bkts) you can change and still call it that thing, and in response you post a bunch of things that are not bkts. Thanks for proving my point.

I posted a gif of Feng Zhiqiang doing BKTS, Chen Jian Qiang deflecting/catching then striking (as Yang Jun describes BKTS) and others pushing or striking which can be a part of BKTS. Your definition of BKTS or "point" may be more limited or not agree with others (e.g., Yang Jun, Feng Zhiqiang, Guo Shilei, etc.).

Forgot to add Chen Zhonghua's student Sun Yang (Golden Belt winner) pushing while 'lifting up" his heel:

Image
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:32 am

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:His online/video course is fantastic, and if you are aware of a better one I would definitely appreciate the tip and follow up on it.
oragami_itto wrote:Marvin, Adam Mizner is not my Sifu. I know accuracy in your statement is not a huge concern, but please do not spread blatant falsehoods.

You said you studied Mizner's "online/video course." Therefore, you are a student of Mizner's and he is one of your teachers or sifus. Which part is "not accurate" or a "falsehood?"

oragami_itto wrote:I asked how much of a thing (bkts) you can change and still call it that thing, and in response you post a bunch of things that are not bkts. Thanks for proving my point.

I posted a gif of Feng Zhiqiang doing BKTS, Chen Jian Qiang deflecting/catching then striking (as Yang Jun describes BKTS) and others pushing or striking which can be a part of BKTS. Your definition of BKTS or "point" may be more limited or not agree with others (e.g., Yang Jun, Feng Zhiqiang, Guo Shilei, etc.).

Forgot to add Chen Zhonghua's student Sun Yang (Golden Belt winner) pushing while 'lifting up" his heel:

Image


You're absolutely right. I'm glad we had this talk.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:36 am

Aw, c'mon, it's not really necessary to take any of this personally. Not everyone preforms BKTS the same way or has the same intention for its use, and there are several variations. Depending on those aspects, it's possible to describe BKTS generally.

For ex., everyone agrees that the body "twists" and the power/energy starts at the back (ex., right) and proceeds toward the front (ex., left). The power is expressed by the hand, which moves from back to front. However, this happens with several movements in the form. It's how the hand is moved that makes BKTS specific. But. different styles have specifically different ways of doing it. The Wu style method is, ime, very different from the Yang, and certainly different from Sun.

They are different in terms of hand shapes and, ime, intention of application. The traditional Yang CF family style emphasizes the "seated palm." Wu CC style does not. I'm not sure how Sun style would describe it, but it's not the same.

Afa the question of how close BKTS is to Parry Punch, I think the similarities are clear. I think what has not been discussed is that both movements come from somewhere, and that makes each one more appropriate for the circumstance. This also depends on how one moves the hand from back to front. For ex., does it travel in a relatively straight path, or does it create an upward circle, or does it take a downward circular path, etc? In some cases, a fist will be the natural shape; in others, a palm might be.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geLkg3kboDU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9FpcXWacPU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o4408mahjI
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:54 am

Steve James wrote:Afa the question of how close BKTS is to Parry Punch, I think the similarities are clear. I think what has not been discussed is that both movements come from somewhere, and that makes each one more appropriate for the circumstance. This also depends on how one moves the hand from back to front. For ex., does it travel in a relatively straight path, or does it create an upward circle, or does it take a downward circular path, etc? In some cases, a fist will be the natural shape; in others, a palm might be.


Depending on the criteria you use, things can be as alike or dissimilar as you care to present them. I don't really care how others categorize them, honestly. I have my own criteria, they have theirs, and we each get what we get from the exercise. There's a lot going on in Matt's video that makes it different than BKTS. You might disagree. That's fine. You're allowed to be wrong. ;D

Is there even a need to map every potential movement onto postures from the form? Is that the point? Does it help? Why are people afraid to simply say "This is a western boxing right cross" and train it for what it is and where it comes from? Does insisting it's BKTS impart some special quality or value to one or the other? I think if your goal is fighting there are much smarter ways to train to be competitive than all this taijiquan silliness.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby Appledog on Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:54 am

marvin8 wrote:(video of feng lifting the heel)


Yes but I am talking about BKTS in YCF Yang style, these are actually two different moves/applications. Stance is different, application is different, etc (IIRC we're talking about the strike aspect of BKTS). Feng does end up lifting his heel here, but he also isn't square to the front either; and I still don't like lifting the heel here. It clearly isn't how it is trained anyway, but it's probably just how it came out in the moment. But sure, FZQ is lifting his heel here, probably something to look into more deeply later.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:18 am

Is there even a need to map every potential movement onto postures from the form? Is that the point? Does it help? Why are people afraid to simply say "This is a western boxing right cross" and train it for what it is and where it comes from? Does insisting it's BKTS impart some special quality or value to one or the other? I think if your goal is fighting there are much smarter ways to train to be competitive than all this taijiquan silliness.


Um, a rose by any other name is just a rose. If someone uses the movement to punch, that's what it is.

Is there a need to map every potential movement? Not really, because it's already been done. There's forward, backward, look left, gaze right, and central equilibrium (the so-called five steps). And the hands control the eight directions. Some people used to describe tcc as these as the basis for the 13 postures --of which BKTS is not one, but can be mapped using those movements. Those principles/ideas are mapped onto every tcc movement.

Imo, it's not important to do BKTS or use its principles the way its done in the form. I'm not saying that Parry Punch and BKTS are the same. I do suggest that being able to see the generalities makes it possible to apply the principles to other things, like sparring, etc. It's like that last video Marvin posted. I'd argue that it's "not really" BK twist Step, but it's close enough.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:08 am

I don't understand why this concept is so difficult to discuss. When you Fajin by using BKTS, there are:

1, before - 4-6 stance
2. during - bow-arrow stance
3. after - moving forward and follow the opponent.

Since in the form training, you don't have opponent. The "after" stage will never be trained. When you push, your opponent moves back, your body naturally follow him, your back heel will be lifted and slided forward.

Image
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:21 am

How about this. TCC uses loads of similes (not :)s), such as "like holding a ball," "as if reeling silk," and "like pushing a boat," etc. How about we use similes that we all know. For example, what if I changed BKTS to "like throwing a ball overhand." Nope, I'm not saying that is what BKTS "is." I said "like." I'm saying that someone else could say "like swinging a bat" and one would have an idea of what the "form" is because the objective and intent would be understood.

In boxing, when the "left hook" is taught, trainers often say that the front foot acts "like it's squashing peanuts." Oh well, no real point to that, just an example.:)
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:34 am

Well I don't think you could improve on Brush Knee and Twist Step when it comes to descriptiveness and brevity, though it does take a certain level of knowledge to understand the description. I think what you're actually grasping at there is the application ideas that are part of some flavors/lineages/traditions. They inform as to the intended idea about the particular energy expression in the posture.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby robert on Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:46 am

Steve James wrote:Aw, c'mon, it's not really necessary to take any of this personally. Not everyone preforms BKTS the same way or has the same intention for its use, and there are several variations. Depending on those aspects, it's possible to describe BKTS generally.

For ex., everyone agrees that the body "twists" and the power/energy starts at the back (ex., right) and proceeds toward the front (ex., left). The power is expressed by the hand, which moves from back to front. However, this happens with several movements in the form. It's how the hand is moved that makes BKTS specific. But. different styles have specifically different ways of doing it. The Wu style method is, ime, very different from the Yang, and certainly different from Sun.

I agree and in Chen style the name is even slightly different. It's xie xing followed by lou xi - diagonal posture followed by brush knee - brush knee in chen style is play pipa or raise hands in yang style. The general idea of the application was shown earlier in the thread with a video of FZQ, a take down over the left leg (of course there are variations). The body mechanics are suitable for a strike, but that would be a hidden app in chen style involving changing the movement. The intention in the chen form is that you are pushing someone to your left.

Here is a video of CZQ showing white crane and diagonal posture.



And CXX showing the sequence diagonal posture (xie xing), brush knee (lou xi), and step forward three times (shang san bu).

The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:54 am

johnwang wrote:Since in the form training, you don't have opponent. The "after" stage will never be trained. When you push, your opponent moves back, your body naturally follow him, your back heel will be lifted and slided forward.


Exactly. Although really the tjq form is a daoyin (guiding and leading the flow of blood and qi) so the next movement in the sequence is to ensure that there’s no ‘breaks’ or interruption of that flow. CXW said that the form is for health and strength. The martial aspect is trained in Dan Lian (single striking practice), where in the case of something like bkts, you would string that into a bkts on the other side and you would naturally lift the heel up as you were moving forward. But he warned that even during Dan Lian you don’t want to imagine one single application of a movement that you’re drilling. He also mentioned something about regretting that he had made that application video, since it potentially narrows the scope of the movements, when people don’t understand that they were just simple examples of what are a vast number of possible applications.

.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby BruceP on Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:39 am

Every punch is a throw and every throw is a punch = BKTS
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby BruceP on Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:40 am

Steve James wrote:Wow, how do ya'll have time to browse different sites. I barely have enough time to read RSF and Facebook (holds his head in shame).



Post Count, meet Sig Line ;D
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:02 am

BruceP wrote:
Steve James wrote:Wow, how do ya'll have time to browse different sites. I barely have enough time to read RSF and Facebook (holds his head in shame).


Post Count, meet Sig Line ;D


:) Ya made me add another.
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Re: Censorship on tai chi sites

Postby Trick on Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:45 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
johnwang wrote:Since in the form training, you don't have opponent. The "after" stage will never be trained. When you push, your opponent moves back, your body naturally follow him, your back heel will be lifted and slided forward.


Exactly. Although really the tjq form is a daoyin (guiding and leading the flow of blood and qi) so the next movement in the sequence is to ensure that there’s no ‘breaks’ or interruption of that flow. CXW said that the form is for health and strength. The martial aspect is trained in Dan Lian (single striking practice), where in the case of something like bkts, you would string that into a bkts on the other side and you would naturally lift the heel up as you were moving forward. But he warned that even during Dan Lian you don’t want to imagine one single application of a movement that you’re drilling. He also mentioned something about regretting that he had made that application video, since it potentially narrows the scope of the movements, when people don’t understand that they were just simple examples of what are a vast number of possible applications.

.

we all have seen those YCF pictures where he apply moves or more exactly a postures from the form, they look quite wierd and unrealistic. its as if had been over and over asked about whats the use of this posture and whats the use of that posture to the point he got annoyed and gave out a "picture-book" with silly apps for the students that will never "get it"
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