Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby everything on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:36 pm

If you want to push and pull people you should do that.

If you want to pursue "unusual" skill for lack of a better term, it doesn't seem like you should necessarily mainly do that. It does seem totally against logic.
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby Steve James on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:20 pm

Deviating from the tradition is fine. There might not even be a reason to do the form at all. However, there's no reason to call the result of one's deviation tcc, either. Doing it the traditional way is simply that, the traditional way.

Fwiw, I'm not sure that anyone who hasn't learned the form first can teach push hands. And, if he can, then there's no reason he can't teach san shou and the weapons. Part of my point is that I teach the way I learned. I've heard people say they know of others who just do zz for a year, etc., before they learn anything else. I'm sure they say that it's preparation, even jibengong. I'm also pretty sure that, if nothing else, doing so will have an effect on the practitioner's mind as well as his body.

I do think that --in the old days-- it was traditional to make students do things that seemed to have nothing to do with fighting, or even martial arts. That was a test of how much the student was willing to faithfully work. It could be true that the "secrets" can all be taught in a day. But, whether the student is mentally and physically is another thing.

That said, I think it's relatively easy to take someone off the street and teach him a phs pattern. If it's training for a competition, it's even easier. After a few times, they'd get the idea. Win or lose, it would be push hands. Anyway, I'm not against doing that. It's perfectly alright to do things non-traditionally. But, then it's your thing
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby Trick on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:58 pm

Bao wrote:
Appledog wrote:Isn't the reason why most push hands 'competitions' devolve into shoving and yanking matches is because the people involved didn't put the proper time into forms practice in the first place?


Why would solo practice help push hands?

It doesn’t to my own experience at least. I’vectly.

im surprised to read this from you
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby Trick on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:12 pm

Bao wrote:
Appledog wrote: This isn't something I came up with on my own, it's said by one's teacher's enough that it probably shouldn't come up here...


That's a problem. Many teachers say that you need so and so long time form (and maybe stance) practice before starting PH. What is the basis for these statements other than that everyone goes on saying so? Form and solo practice can help your rooting and whole body movement as well as awareness of movement. But it won't help you understanding things as timing, distance and angle, how to use intent in PH and the psychology of PH.

there are some very vital elements to the forms(taiji) practice that help deal with the outer aspects that might come up in an confrontation. if one does not have them, then yes the form will just be an exercise of awareness of ones own movement
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:02 am

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:Why would solo practice help push hands?
It doesn’t to my own experience at least.

im surprised to read this from you


Sounds provocative, doesn't it? ;D

I used to believe it did. Maybe just because many "masters" said so. But again, I've met many who practiced forms, and yet when you meet them they tense up, use force. Every Tai ci competition should tell you the same. Most of the people using force in PH comps have spent a lot of time practicing forms.

But maybe I should re-phrase it. Forms and Solo practice can help your PH, but not help you to become good in it. Forms can help you understand whole body coordination. But whole body movement will be harder to keep when someone tries to throw you. Forms can help you understand rooting and balance, but it can not help you to keep it when you do free push hands. Forms can help you to understand deep relaxation, but it can not help you to understand how to relax when someone tries to push you around. There's a difference. Form and PH don't match together automatically, they need to be bridged. If you only practice form for a long time before starting PH, it can become even harder to find this bridge between form and PH and not easier. Because then you will cement differences instead of focus on functional similarities and you might find it harder to bridge form to free PH play.

IMO, you need to get the same good experience in PH regardless how much or little you practice forms. Forms can point to a direction, show and teach your body what you need to achieve. But still, a great amount of form practice does not equal a certain amount of better PH skills.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:25 am

When you have interpretive energy it matters little if you practice pushing
The pushing is there in your exercises or form
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:25 am

When you have interpretive energy it matters little if you practice pushing
The pushing is there in your exercises or form
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:26 am

When you have interpretive energy it matters little if you practice pushing
The pushing is there in your exercises or form
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:42 am

The genius of the Taiji forms and similar exercises is that they do not only give an excellent body awareness exercise and a couple of martial flavored postures that one can try out with a partner, but also with the right elements in place will teach the right sensitivity one need to successfully deal with an confrontational situation. Obviously those elements are lacking by most Taiji practitioners because they are supposed to be only for the initiated, my teacher told me to keep them under the hat, but still I see them out in the open by some other lineages. Seek and you will find 8-). On the other hand I actually really dislike PH, so I’m more than happy to skip that phase in practice and rather jump to light sparring if that’s on the agenda
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:36 am

On the other hand I actually really dislike PH, so I’m more than happy to skip that phase in practice and rather jump to light sparring if that’s on the agenda


I see... I like free PH as a way to get away from chasing punches and focus on controlling centreline and balance. Sparring is fun, but IMHO, then you need to get away from the common sparring mindset and focus on more genuine Tai Chi methods and tactics.
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:49 am

In tai chi there is the easy way and the hard way
The hard way is actually the easy way
Put in the work and it will take care of itself
The easy is actually the hard way
Because if you don't put in the work at the start no matter how hard you chase success it will never come
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:18 am

Bao wrote:
On the other hand I actually really dislike PH, so I’m more than happy to skip that phase in practice and rather jump to light sparring if that’s on the agenda


I see... I like free PH as a way to get away from chasing punches and focus on controlling centreline and balance. Sparring is fun, but IMHO, then you need to get away from the common sparring mindset and focus on more genuine Tai Chi methods and tactics.

sorry, i jumped too far in that qoute 8-) .free free PH i can bare . i meant dissliking the "usual" back and forth formal zombie PH, although i understand its place in practice..
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:36 am

as i hinted previously there are methods of the forms practice that excercie the "sparring" mind (and body), this method kind of makes the regular PH practice a stepping stone that is quite jumpable once its been experienced. but the form with its correct methods must be kept and continued.
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:09 am

free PH i can bare . i meant dissliking the "usual" back and forth formal zombie PH, although i understand its place in practice..


Yeah, not a big fan of drills. There are better partner exercises for practicing Tai Chi principles. Those rocking back and forth drills are too one-dimensional, can teach bad habits.
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Re: Tuishou practice in taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:15 am

It's all about who teaches it and how and who practice it
Nothing is there by accident
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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