Plan one step ahead

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby everything on Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:46 pm

I don't know all the setups for the plan moves ahead, but I should get back leg as Plan A, but front is still good plan B? That makes sense to me. Personally this kind of takedown is one of my favorites. It seems a little unexpected (for those that don't know of it).
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:10 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Maybe, maybe not, the point remains you are describing a completely different Gambit.


John and I only care about what works. 1 is better than 1-2 which is better than 1-2-3.


Sure, 1 is better than 3, but a duck is a duck and a chicken is a chicken, and just running them over in one movement doesn't really fit the topic of discussion "plan one step ahead".


"The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry." - Sifu John Steinbeck

If you have a plan you're not doing CIMA. Turn off your mind and use your body awareness.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby Trick on Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:24 pm

everything wrote:It depends right. Machida liked to use these kinds of cross the body takedowns. Sometimes he got a leg or the other. Sometimes not. But I think he often did plan it one step ahead, but more as an "attack by drawing" rather than "progressive indirect attack" to borrow from Bruce Lee terms. Other times, it's kind of just there. In the second part of this gif, he doesn't really do the throw as cleanly as in the first, looks more like "press", but it works out, and he does catch a leg. First throw, it seems more that he "bumps" the hip of his opponent and makes the guy's hip go over his bump.

Image

machida has a strong shotokan karate(jka) background (fater was jka head instructor in brazil) that kind of takedow is an common technique practiced by advanced shotokan karatekas
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby Trick on Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:34 pm

the one step ahead thing is in practice. what practiced should come out spontainiously depending on the situation in a sharp encounter......of course one can have a favourite move/fient that creates an opening to plant a strike or a takedown, but in a real sharp situation there might not be time to play with such
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:50 pm

Taste of Death wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:John and I only care about what works. 1 is better than 1-2 which is better than 1-2-3.


Sure, 1 is better than 3, but a duck is a duck and a chicken is a chicken, and just running them over in one movement doesn't really fit the topic of discussion "plan one step ahead".


"The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry." - Sifu John Steinbeck

If you have a plan you're not doing CIMA. Turn off your mind and use your body awareness.


Right... thanks... you obviously have a deep grasp of the topic.
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:58 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
Right... thanks... you obviously have a deep grasp of the topic.


I learned taiji and hsing i from Henry Look and yiquan from Han Jing Chen. I do have a deep grasp of the topic. You just throw around insults. Come out to the Bay Area where we don't just talk cima but actually do it.
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:47 am

Taste of Death wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
Right... thanks... you obviously have a deep grasp of the topic.


I learned taiji and hsing i from Henry Look and yiquan from Han Jing Chen. I do have a deep grasp of the topic. You just throw around insults. Come out to the Bay Area where we don't just talk cima but actually do it.

Yaay keyboard threats, you sure are moving up the ranks quickly, clearly demonstrating your mindset.

Do you always try to pick fights when you don't understand the topic of discussion or is this something special you're breaking out for my benefit?
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby Trick on Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:12 am

if talking (xingyiquan)yiquan push-hands/sparring its nothing unusual to draw out an opening in the opponents guard
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:41 am

Trick wrote:if talking (xingyiquan)yiquan push-hands/sparring its nothing unusual to draw out an opening in the opponents guard

Yeah, sure, Trick, but then you're not doing CIMA.

The only way to do CIMA correctly is to turn off your brain and just barge on in. When do right, no can defend.
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:11 am

The highest level regarding taiji is said to be the ability not to have to move.


Wu Wei,

Can be thought of as no mind. No mind does not mean not using mind.



"When your body is not aligned [形不正],
The inner power will not come.
When you are not tranquil within [中不靜],
Your mind will not be well ordered.
Align your body, assist the inner power [正形攝德],
Then it will gradually come on its own."

The metaphors used in taiji

an eagle circling catching the rabbit

A cat catching a rat



Timing, positioning, distance.

All done or should be done on an intuitive level.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:19 am

everything wrote:I don't know all the setups for the plan moves ahead, but I should get back leg as Plan A, but front is still good plan B? That makes sense to me. Personally this kind of takedown is one of my favorites. It seems a little unexpected (for those that don't know of it).



If one understands what awareness means. To be aware without gaps. It's very difficult to enter.
being able to take someone down means that they have a gap in their awareness.

One has to understand their space, and the space around them.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:42 am

windwalker wrote:If one understands what awareness means. To be aware without gaps. It's very difficult to enter.
being able to take someone down means that they have a gap in their awareness.

I agree. That's precisely why we have these sort of diversionary tactics to create that gap.

Douglass Wile wrote:Song of Look-Right
Feigning to the left, we attack to the right with perfect steps.
Striking left and attacking right, we follow the opportunities.
We avoid the frontal and advance from the side, seizing changing conditions.
Left and right, full and empty, our technique must be faultless.
Yang Family Manuscripts Collected by Li Ying-ang
Tai Chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions p 37
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:09 am

oragami_itto wrote:
windwalker wrote:If one understands what awareness means. To be aware without gaps. It's very difficult to enter.
being able to take someone down means that they have a gap in their awareness.

I agree. That's precisely why we have these sort of diversionary tactics to create that gap.



Its not really at the level from were I'm speaking from...This outlines it, maybe more clear

To speak in terms of your own martial art, when you first notice the sword that is moving to strike you, if you think of meeting that sword just as it is, your mind will stop at the sword in just that position, your own movements will be undone, and you will be cut down by your opponent. This is what stopping means. the gap


Although you see the sword that moves to strike you, if your mind is not detained by it and you meet the rhythm of the advancing sword; if you do not think of striking your opponent and no thoughts or judgments remain; if the instant you see the swinging sword your mind is not the least bit detained and you move straight in and wrench the sword away from him; the sword that was going to cut you down will become your own, and, contrarily, will be the sword that cuts down your opponent.

http://www.alexandrosmarinos.com/TheUnfetteredMind.pdf
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby Taste of Death on Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:19 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
Right... thanks... you obviously have a deep grasp of the topic.


I learned taiji and hsing i from Henry Look and yiquan from Han Jing Chen. I do have a deep grasp of the topic. You just throw around insults. Come out to the Bay Area where we don't just talk cima but actually do it.

Yaay keyboard threats, you sure are moving up the ranks quickly, clearly demonstrating your mindset.

Do you always try to pick fights when you don't understand the topic of discussion or is this something special you're breaking out for my benefit?


I invited you to come train with us which some from this and other online forums have done. I wasn't challenging you to anything other than a discussion.

The topic of this thread is planning one step ahead. With cima there can be no plan. We practice the art of "change". If I have a plan what do I do when something unexpected happens? Come up with another plan or just let my body do what it was trained for?
Last edited by Taste of Death on Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plan one step ahead

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:41 pm

Taste of Death wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:
I learned taiji and hsing i from Henry Look and yiquan from Han Jing Chen. I do have a deep grasp of the topic. You just throw around insults. Come out to the Bay Area where we don't just talk cima but actually do it.

Yaay keyboard threats, you sure are moving up the ranks quickly, clearly demonstrating your mindset.

Do you always try to pick fights when you don't understand the topic of discussion or is this something special you're breaking out for my benefit?


I invited you to come train with us which some from this and other online forums have done. I wasn't challenging you to anything other than a discussion.

The topic of this thread is planning one step ahead. With cima there can be no plan. We practice the art of "change". If I have a plan what do I do when something unexpected happens? Come up with another plan or just let my body do what it was trained for?

Fair enough, if I'm ever in the bay I'll look you up.

That's a fine philosophy, but in my practical experience, it helps to have access to multiple methods. Yes, we want to move from the void and respond spontaneously, but sometimes the responses need to be more complex. Some opponents require more opening and drawing than others. I'm sure whatever your doing is fine.
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