Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:06 pm

If Sam was doing yiquan he would move his feet and would not let his training partner enter the gates but here he is using yiquan to power his taiji.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQjX6ROK7Nw
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Trick on Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:11 am

taijiquan and yiquan have the same frame, just slight difference in strategically applying it.....on a rudimentary level.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:28 am

Trick wrote:taijiquan and yiquan have the same frame, just slight difference in strategically applying it.....on a rudimentary level.


True
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Bao on Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:36 am

Taste of Death wrote: he is using yiquan to power his taiji.


Why do you believe so?

Trick wrote:taijiquan and yiquan have the same frame.


Not an Yiquan expert, but it seems like that people usually use a more solid frame and use it in a more strict manner.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Trick on Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:05 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:taijiquan and yiquan have the same frame.


Not an Yiquan expert, but it seems like that people usually use a more solid frame and use it in a more strict manner.

“difference in strategically applying it”
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Bao on Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:48 am

Maybe not only strategy.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:26 am

Nice clip.

A little curious if you or others can do what is shown in the clip.

As with many similar clips people question.

How would you explain what's going on in your own words.

I do find it interesting with taiji that people claim it's not about the movements and then when different movements or applications are shown they go back and claim it is the movement.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:13 am

Bao wrote:
Taste of Death wrote: he is using yiquan to power his taiji.


Why do you believe so?


I am familiar with his training. He taught some of my yiquan teachers.

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:taijiquan and yiquan have the same frame.


Not an Yiquan expert, but it seems like that people usually use a more solid frame and use it in a more strict manner.


He's working more from a taiji perspective but the frame isn't that different from yiquan, just how he uses it. And it's just a training demonstration. With yiquan he'd bridge more with his arms and less with his body. All cima's are about adaptability and change so few things should be done in a "strict" manner.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:21 am

windwalker wrote:Nice clip.

A little curious if you or others can do what is shown in the clip.

As with many similar clips people question.

How would you explain what's going on in your own words.

I do find it interesting with taiji that people claim it's not about the movements and then when different movements or applications are shown they go back and claim it is the movement.


With yiquan there is a lot less yielding. With taiji one allows the opponent to explore the limits of his range but with yiquan it should repel on contact.

As you know it's hard to explain in words. When training together we could reach a sort of verbal conclusion or description of what's taking place. At it's most basic it's about expansion. The push fills the body. It needs to be relaxed/soft/light enough to receive the partners energy and then expand to repel it.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Bao on Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:50 am

Taste of Death wrote:I am familiar with his training. He taught some of my yiquan teachers.


I am not asking about what you know and what conclusions you make. I ask you how you can see it in the clip.

All cima's are about adaptability and change so few things should be done in a "strict" manner.


Depends. If you teacher and want to teach Yiquan, you should teach it strict from strict Yiquan principles. If you teach Tai Chi you you should teach it strictly with Tai Chi principles. If someone comes to you to learn Tai Chi, you should teach Tai Chi and not a mix of this and that. From what I can see the vid is a Tai Chi session. If the teacher here (Sam) is honest, he would either say that he mixes up stuff or he should teach Tai Chi as pure as possible. But nowhere I can read that what he shows or read is a mix, so I must presume that what he teaches is Tai Chi.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:56 am

Taste of Death wrote:
With yiquan there is a lot less yielding. With taiji one allows the opponent to explore the limits of his range but with yiquan it should repel on contact.

As you know it's hard to explain in words. When training together we could reach a sort of verbal conclusion or description of what's taking place. At it's most basic it's about expansion. The push fills the body. It needs to be relaxed/soft/light enough to receive the partners energy and then expand to repel it.


Thanks,,,haha I do know ;)

Sounds like good training.
Also sounds like what your working on is what we would call boundary layer ie first contact working with
what some may call a "qi chong" or qi field,,,which could be called field of awareness. Similar to the feeling of the space one feels when driving a car that includes the car...This has to change according to size of the car.


The filling you speak of sounds like what we would call "intent" It's not about pressure although when its developed and one is able to use it.. It tends to prevent any movement by the other as its always to late...the only place they can move is already filled...In most cases the result is some of the reactions that people often question in an attempt to get out of it....

How or why it prevents movement is quite interesting as its not a
physical restraint or prevention of movement.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:02 am

Bao wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:I am familiar with his training. He taught some of my yiquan teachers.


I am not asking about what you know and what conclusions you make. I ask you how you can see it in the clip.

All cima's are about adaptability and change so few things should be done in a "strict" manner.


Depends. If you teacher and want to teach Yiquan, you should teach it strict from strict Yiquan principles. If you teach Tai Chi you you should teach it strictly with Tai Chi principles. If someone comes to you to learn Tai Chi, you should teach Tai Chi and not a mix of this and that. From what I can see the vid is a Tai Chi session. If the teacher here (Sam) is honest, he would either say that he mixes up stuff or he should teach Tai Chi as pure as possible. But nowhere I can read that what he shows or read is a mix, so I must presume that what he teaches is Tai Chi.


would not agree.

"honesty" really ?

Like the teachers work, he seems to be quite honest and sincere in his presentations.

Taiji, like aiki is a distinct method, understanding,
out look that transcends outer movements.

What is called taiji by many are movements that have become known as taiji
In most cases reflected in the many family styles said to be taiji.

This means that not all taiji, is really taiji...
things that are not considered to be taiji can be very much taiji

What is called taiji now was not called taiji when it was first developed
Not being called as such was it then not taiji?

Interesting enough what I do is no longer representative of any family style although it is based on one.
All who I've met in taiwan often told me in working with them....those that they met teaching taiji couldn't do it.
What we worked on accorded with what they felt taiji should be and is written about.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:05 am

Taiji/Hsing I/Yiquan energies

Teach what you know. Purity be damned.

"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:07 am

Interview about Sam Tam

"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Bao on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:22 am

windwalker wrote:This means that not all taiji, is really taiji...
things that are not considered to be taiji can be very much taiji

What is called taiji now was not called taiji when it was first developed
Not being called as such was it then not taiji?


My concern is not about names. I wrote about using “strict principle”, not that things should be called this or that. Though I know that principles differ within styles, it’s important to teach body mechanics and other principles in a very strict manner. Certain skill sets need to grow out of long time practice. If you want to grow plants, you must choose the correct seeds, let it grow in the correct temperatures and correct degree of moist. You can experiment or be not so concerned about how you grow something, but it will affect the quality of the outcome. If you want to develop certain type of skill sets, you need to be concerned about how you practice and how you use your body. If you mix up things, your growth might take longer time or it will affect the quality of the outcome.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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