Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Appledog on Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:09 am

Taste of Death wrote:
Appledog wrote:I never thought I'd see a single thread which encapsulated so many of the major misunderstandings surrounding Tai Chi and the internal arts in one place. This was like a cosmic event -- the planets did align.

Guys, you have to do better. You have to do more research into this stuff. It is not as if we are operating in an information vacuum. We are not. The information and the truth is out there. Do not allow yourself to be deceived by someone else's honor. It will not be counted as your own honor, but as foolishness.


I was going to respond to this but since you delete all but your current 100 posts this post, too, will be deleted. -woot-


Get it while you can.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:31 am

johnwang wrote:Every time when I see a "push" clip like this (I'm allergy to push), I always want to ask the following questions:


- Have you ever seen skill like this ever been used in the boxing ring, or on the wrestling mat?
The practical method guy had a student just beat up a Muay Thai guy. He used "push" a couple times to take the wind out of his opponent and throw him to the mat.
- The push is neither punch nor throw. What is it?
It's polite. In training/demo situations it's just connecting and manipulating the center politely. If you want to be impolite then you use real An and throw them to the ground or into a solid object.
- Why do you want to push your opponent away? You should keep your friends close but your enemies closer.
To create space or to injure them.
- If you grab on your opponent's wrist so your body and his body are connected, can he still push you away?
Certainly. That's why in general I like to avoid "grabbing" and prefer "sticking"
- In all this kind of demo clip, the student always has poor balance, why?
The master's skill destroys the student's balance. When they're really good the lightest touch makes you floaty and unstable.
- When your opponent's force comes through your arm, if you collapse your arm at your elbow joint, can his force still be able to reach to your upper arm and reach to your body?
Collapse is a bad word for it. If you collapse your arm then it will simply travel in the direction the opponent is pushing, which would drive it into your body giving him a means of transmitting force. What's better is to Stick, Adhere, Join, Follow. Stay connected, stay uncollapsed, but don't resist. When you do that right, you guide their force away from your body, without directly resisting it or giving it a path to affect your own. With the high level guys, though, you just can't. I don't understand it. They always find the tension you didn't know was there and use it against you.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby johnwang on Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:14 pm

oragami_itto wrote:- If you grab on your opponent's wrist so your body and his body are connected, can he still push you away?
Certainly. That's why in general I like to avoid "grabbing" and prefer "sticking".

You may not want to grab on your opponent's wrist. But your opponent may want to grab on your wrist. If you try to avoid, you are playing the "grip fight" game (move your arm away from your opponent's arm). You are no longer playing the PH game (contact your arm on your opponent's arm).

Last edited by johnwang on Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:53 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:- If you grab on your opponent's wrist so your body and his body are connected, can he still push you away?
Certainly. That's why in general I like to avoid "grabbing" and prefer "sticking".

You may not want to grab on your opponent's wrist. But your opponent may want to grab on your wrist. If you try to avoid, you are playing the "grip fight" game (move your arm away from your opponent's arm). You are no longer playing the PH game (contact your arm on your opponent's arm).



Except in the two videos I posted. I didn't know that the ostrich was one of your animal forms.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby johnwang on Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:03 pm

Taste of Death wrote:Except in the two videos I posted. I didn't know that the ostrich was one of your animal forms.

In your 1st clip. he uses "抖(Dou) – Shaking". Different styles may use the same principle with different terms.

The term "octopus" is my new term which has never been used before (I'm no longer a copy machine ;D ). You use your

- left hand to grab on your opponent's right wrist.
- right hand to grab on his left wrist.
- leading leg to shin bite on his leading leg.

At that particular moment, you are safe.
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:37 pm

Start using chewing tobacco and you could do the move ‘Octopus squirts ink in eyeballs’.

;)
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:37 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:- If you grab on your opponent's wrist so your body and his body are connected, can he still push you away?
Certainly. That's why in general I like to avoid "grabbing" and prefer "sticking".

You may not want to grab on your opponent's wrist. But your opponent may want to grab on your wrist. If you try to avoid, you are playing the "grip fight" game (move your arm away from your opponent's arm). You are no longer playing the PH game (contact your arm on your opponent's arm).



In this idea, I don't care if they grab me. Their grab is just a conduit for my energy to affect their center. That's the original question I was attempting to answer. When you've got a stiff grab that locks your hand in relation to what it's grabbing, so if I can have better control over what you're grabbing then I have control of what you're grabbing it with, and by extension, you.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Trick on Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:45 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Start using chewing tobacco and you could do the move ‘Octopus squirts ink in eyeballs’.

;)

that was actually a "weapon" i used one time in my teenage years - swedish moist snuff, "General" brand 8-) keep the shades on for safety
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby richardman on Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:27 am

Mr. Wang, obviously different situations call for different reactions. I can assure you that many 擒拿 and jujitsu experts have joint-locked Sifu and it's not a problem for him. Would he push or counter-lock, or whatever? Even Sifu would not know beforehand. It depends at THAT moment.

As for whether his students can do "his stuff", we all get a little flavors of Sifu. Some of his senior students are quite accomplished themselves and could do some of the stuff shown in the original first video. I am without much talent, and my wife can do that kind of things to me as she knows my frame very well.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby richardman on Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:13 pm

Furthermore, the original video is just Sifu showing the students how one can yield and then return the force. The word "one" is important - he is not demonstrating what he can do per se. Of course he could do it. He is showing us how it can be done, so we can learn it. As for the push itself, the Tai Chi 發勁 Fajin is gentle and long, the Yiquan 發勁 is like being hit by a moving wall. No escape. However, the key is that he shows you that the push is not coming from the arm/hand. Hence there are times where his hand doesn't hit/push the person, and they go flying just the same. The force is the same.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:29 pm

As for the push itself, the Tai Chi 發勁 Fajin is gentle and long, the Yiquan 發勁 is like being hit by a moving wall.


Taijiquan fajin has a lot of variety, it can feel very different depending on who does it. A late friend had an incredible strong fajin and it hurt a lot, a bit like the chest was crushed inwards. You really didn’t want to come close to him again after feeling that massive amount of power.

Below are excerpts from an article by Li Ya Xuan, one of the top students of Yang Jien Hou and Yang Chen Fu, on Yang family fajin.

1. “Yang Lu Chan’s fajin was empty, leaving the opponent not knowing what happened or how the jin was released. His jin was so perfected as to be called mysterious.”

2. “Yang Ban Hou’s fajin was SUDDEN, like lightning without rain, emerging from nowhere with the sounds of «Pa!». One fajin would send the opponent out many zhang ( 1 zhang = 3.3 meters). His jin would leave people in pain and injured.”

3. “Yang Jien Hou would use the lightest of touch, his sticking energy was so high that people could not disconnect, then they would be suddenly released like an arrow from a bow.”

4. “Yang Shao Hou’s jin was ever spontaneous and song to the extreme, fast beyond compare. His body skills were mysterious and treacherous like a ghost appearing and reappearing, fooling his opponents so they would have no idea what was happening or how to defend themselves until they had fallen to his jin before even knowing it.”

5. “Yang Chen Fu’s fajin was powerful with great sudden dantien force. Before he would fa there was a deep intention; when he would fa it was like Guang Gong taking off a head with a single stroke…”

6. “Wu Hui Chuan used song elastic energy preferring to use just a little jin to send his opponents out, he did not lose face as a student of the Yang family. His students could produce long jin, both song and sunk, not bad.”

7. “Cui Yi Shi was skilled in fajin both song and sunk. Before he would fa he would inhale one time and use the elastic jin. His jin was song and springy, propelling his opponent away. On release the jin would cause the opponent to release a sound from the mouth as the wind was knocked from them. This is the kung fu of the qi striking the qi.”

8. “Li Xiang Yan in his youth studied and trained deeply in long fist, after which he followed Yang Feng Hou taijiquan and achieved great gong li. He was dedicated to study and practice and achieved jin that was full and hard, penetrating deep inside the opponent. Later he bowed to Yang Chen Fu as his teacher.”

9. “Dong Ying Jie liked to use Rou Cou Jin, pressuring his opponent from side to side, forward and back until they fell defeated.”

10. “Zheng Man Qing would use light touch and clean sticking energy, entering close with his body before firing the opponent out with jin. He was small but had kung fu and courage and was skilled at penetrating the defense of his opponents.”

11. “Tian Zhao Lin’s kung fu was soft and penetrating, breaking his opponents as they were knocked down, amongst other skills.”

12. “I myself Li Ya Xuan use many strange changes, making it difficult to follow. The jin is fast like lighting. I don’t like to just play sticking and circling.”


Source: https://discovertaiji.com/en/yang-family-fajin_91.html
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby richardman on Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:43 pm

Bao wrote:
Taijiquan fajin has a lot of variety, it can feel very different depending on who does it. A late friend had an incredible strong fajin and it hurt a lot, a bit like the chest was crushed inwards. You really didn’t want to come close to him again after feeling that massive amount of power.

..Source: https://discovertaiji.com/en/yang-family-fajin_91.html


Yes I am well aware of Lee's and Chen Yanlin's 30+ fajin categorization. I am just referring what you see in some of these videos with Sifu Tam.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:11 pm

Bao wrote:
As for the push itself, the Tai Chi 發勁 Fajin is gentle and long, the Yiquan 發勁 is like being hit by a moving wall.


Taijiquan fajin has a lot of variety, it can feel very different depending on who does it. A late friend had an incredible strong fajin and it hurt a lot, a bit like the chest was crushed inwards. You really didn’t want to come close to him again after feeling that massive amount of power.

Below are excerpts from an article by Li Ya Xuan, one of the top students of Yang Jien Hou and Yang Chen Fu, on Yang family fajin.

1. “Yang Lu Chan’s fajin was empty, leaving the opponent not knowing what happened or how the jin was released. His jin was so perfected as to be called mysterious.”

2. “Yang Ban Hou’s fajin was SUDDEN, like lightning without rain, emerging from nowhere with the sounds of «Pa!». One fajin would send the opponent out many zhang ( 1 zhang = 3.3 meters). His jin would leave people in pain and injured.”

3. “Yang Jien Hou would use the lightest of touch, his sticking energy was so high that people could not disconnect, then they would be suddenly released like an arrow from a bow.”

4. “Yang Shao Hou’s jin was ever spontaneous and song to the extreme, fast beyond compare. His body skills were mysterious and treacherous like a ghost appearing and reappearing, fooling his opponents so they would have no idea what was happening or how to defend themselves until they had fallen to his jin before even knowing it.”

5. “Yang Chen Fu’s fajin was powerful with great sudden dantien force. Before he would fa there was a deep intention; when he would fa it was like Guang Gong taking off a head with a single stroke…”

6. “Wu Hui Chuan used song elastic energy preferring to use just a little jin to send his opponents out, he did not lose face as a student of the Yang family. His students could produce long jin, both song and sunk, not bad.”

7. “Cui Yi Shi was skilled in fajin both song and sunk. Before he would fa he would inhale one time and use the elastic jin. His jin was song and springy, propelling his opponent away. On release the jin would cause the opponent to release a sound from the mouth as the wind was knocked from them. This is the kung fu of the qi striking the qi.”

8. “Li Xiang Yan in his youth studied and trained deeply in long fist, after which he followed Yang Feng Hou taijiquan and achieved great gong li. He was dedicated to study and practice and achieved jin that was full and hard, penetrating deep inside the opponent. Later he bowed to Yang Chen Fu as his teacher.”

9. “Dong Ying Jie liked to use Rou Cou Jin, pressuring his opponent from side to side, forward and back until they fell defeated.”

10. “Zheng Man Qing would use light touch and clean sticking energy, entering close with his body before firing the opponent out with jin. He was small but had kung fu and courage and was skilled at penetrating the defense of his opponents.”

11. “Tian Zhao Lin’s kung fu was soft and penetrating, breaking his opponents as they were knocked down, amongst other skills.”

12. “I myself Li Ya Xuan use many strange changes, making it difficult to follow. The jin is fast like lighting. I don’t like to just play sticking and circling.”


Source: https://discovertaiji.com/en/yang-family-fajin_91.html

on that unessecay long list of "taiji" fajin's, seemingly only the number one guy got it right 8-)
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:15 pm

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:
As for the push itself, the Tai Chi 發勁 Fajin is gentle and long, the Yiquan 發勁 is like being hit by a moving wall.


Taijiquan fajin has a lot of variety, it can feel very different depending on who does it. A late friend had an incredible strong fajin and it hurt a lot, a bit like the chest was crushed inwards. You really didn’t want to come close to him again after feeling that massive amount of power.

Below are excerpts from an article by Li Ya Xuan, one of the top students of Yang Jien Hou and Yang Chen Fu, on Yang family fajin.

1. “Yang Lu Chan’s fajin was empty, leaving the opponent not knowing what happened or how the jin was released. His jin was so perfected as to be called mysterious.”

2. “Yang Ban Hou’s fajin was SUDDEN, like lightning without rain, emerging from nowhere with the sounds of «Pa!». One fajin would send the opponent out many zhang ( 1 zhang = 3.3 meters). His jin would leave people in pain and injured.”

3. “Yang Jien Hou would use the lightest of touch, his sticking energy was so high that people could not disconnect, then they would be suddenly released like an arrow from a bow.”

4. “Yang Shao Hou’s jin was ever spontaneous and song to the extreme, fast beyond compare. His body skills were mysterious and treacherous like a ghost appearing and reappearing, fooling his opponents so they would have no idea what was happening or how to defend themselves until they had fallen to his jin before even knowing it.”

5. “Yang Chen Fu’s fajin was powerful with great sudden dantien force. Before he would fa there was a deep intention; when he would fa it was like Guang Gong taking off a head with a single stroke…”

6. “Wu Hui Chuan used song elastic energy preferring to use just a little jin to send his opponents out, he did not lose face as a student of the Yang family. His students could produce long jin, both song and sunk, not bad.”

7. “Cui Yi Shi was skilled in fajin both song and sunk. Before he would fa he would inhale one time and use the elastic jin. His jin was song and springy, propelling his opponent away. On release the jin would cause the opponent to release a sound from the mouth as the wind was knocked from them. This is the kung fu of the qi striking the qi.”

8. “Li Xiang Yan in his youth studied and trained deeply in long fist, after which he followed Yang Feng Hou taijiquan and achieved great gong li. He was dedicated to study and practice and achieved jin that was full and hard, penetrating deep inside the opponent. Later he bowed to Yang Chen Fu as his teacher.”

9. “Dong Ying Jie liked to use Rou Cou Jin, pressuring his opponent from side to side, forward and back until they fell defeated.”

10. “Zheng Man Qing would use light touch and clean sticking energy, entering close with his body before firing the opponent out with jin. He was small but had kung fu and courage and was skilled at penetrating the defense of his opponents.”

11. “Tian Zhao Lin’s kung fu was soft and penetrating, breaking his opponents as they were knocked down, amongst other skills.”

12. “I myself Li Ya Xuan use many strange changes, making it difficult to follow. The jin is fast like lighting. I don’t like to just play sticking and circling.”


Source: https://discovertaiji.com/en/yang-family-fajin_91.html

on that unessecay long list of "taiji" fajin's, seemingly only the number one guy got it right 8-)

and that the author "praise" himself sound quite strange. i thought higher of LYX
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:54 pm

on that unessecay long list of "taiji" fajin's, seemingly only the number one guy got it right

...that was a seemingly odd comment...
...imho ;)

and that the author "praise" himself sound quite strange. i thought higher of LYX


I guess I would need to compare it with the Chinese original in order to judge if there is praise or merely a statement. Li was regarded as YCF's best and most gifted student so it would be somewhat odd to leave himself out describing his classmates different takes on fajin. He doesn't say that he is better than someone else and what he says about himself is very much the same as others said about him, that he was very hard to follow and released fajin suddenly without any notice.
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