Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Bao on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:26 am

Taste of Death wrote:Taiji/Hsing I/Yiquan energies

Teach what you know. Purity be damned.



Sam knows Yiquan, WHite Crane, Xingyi and Tai Chi. What he was taught was not a mix, he was taught them separately. That’s is what he knows, different styles, and that is what he should teach if a student wants to learn a specific art. A practitioner can mix how he wants, but teaching skills is different than showing of different things in front of a class.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Bao on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:29 am

And you didn’t answer on my question. I still don’t know what you see as Tai Chi or Yiquan. So I can only assume that what you say is about opinion and not about what you can see or not.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:39 am

Bao wrote:And you didn’t answer on my question. I still don’t know what you see as Tai Chi or Yiquan. So I can only assume that what you say is about opinion and not about what you can see or not.


Seeing is believing except when it comes to cima videos.

Simplified version: yielding is taiji (letting partner overextend), repelling is yiquan (expansion on contact).
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:46 am

Every time when I see a "push" clip like this (I'm allergy to push), I always want to ask the following questions:

- Have you ever seen skill like this ever been used in the boxing ring, or on the wrestling mat?
- The push is neither punch nor throw. What is it?
- Why do you want to push your opponent away? You should keep your friends close but your enemies closer.
- If you grab on your opponent's wrist so your body and his body are connected, can he still push you away?
- In all this kind of demo clip, the student always has poor balance, why?
- When your opponent's force comes through your arm, if you collapse your arm at your elbow joint, can his force still be able to reach to your upper arm and reach to your body?
- ...

Those are general questions. It's not direct to the person in that clip.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Bao on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:56 am

Taste of Death wrote:Simplified version: yielding is taiji (letting partner overextend), repelling is yiquan (expansion on contact).


Tai Chi Chuan is not that narrow. The concept of “Yielding” is based on a translation mistake. Yield = Rang is considered wrong in Tai Chi. The skill is “hua” or transform. “Letting partner overextend” and “repelling”/“expansion on contact” are both to be found Tai Chi. In the first clip I see nothing that is not found in Tai Chi.

johnwang wrote:Every time when I see a "push" clip like this, I always want to ask the following questions:
- Have you ever seen skill like this ever been used in the boxing ring, or on the wrestling mat?


When is it logical to push with gloves or when you use western wrestling rules?
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:00 am

johnwang wrote:Every time when I see a "push" clip like this (I'm allergy to push), I always want to ask the following questions:

- Have you ever seen skill like this ever been used in the boxing ring, or on the wrestling mat?
- The push is neither punch nor throw. What is it?
- Why do you want to push your opponent away? You should keep your friends close but your enemies closer.
- If you grab on your opponent's wrist so your body and his body are connected, can he still push you away?
- In all this kind of demo clip, the student always has poor balance, why?
- When your opponent's force comes through your arm, if you collapse your arm at your elbow joint, can his force still be able to reach to your upper arm and reach to your body?
- ...

Those are general questions. It's not direct to the person in that clip.


- Boxers and wrestlers don't do this kind of training. Most people young enough to fight don't have the patience to learn this type of skill. And those that are mature enough to grasp it are too old to fight. For example: Lei Tai has an age limit. No one over forty.

- Sam says, "I hit him three times. The first time is when I hit him. The second time is when he hits the wall. The third time is when he hits the ground." You Shuai Jiao guys hit twice.

- When someone grabs me they become part of me. When I move they move. When his feet leave the floor he may have other things to think about than how strong his wrist grab is.

- Double weighting.

- When someone pushes on me I let the energy/force fill my back like a sail full of wind. I keep my structure and don't resist. I hit him with my spine not my arms. Or rather I use the spine like rear wheel drive. The arms are my bumper.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:08 am

Bao wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:Simplified version: yielding is taiji (letting partner overextend), repelling is yiquan (expansion on contact).


Tai Chi Chuan is not that narrow. The concept of “Yielding” is based on a translation mistake. Yield = Rang is considered wrong in Tai Chi. The skill is “hua” or transform. “Letting partner overextend” and “repelling”/“expansion on contact” are both to be found Tai Chi. In the first clip I see nothing that is not found in Tai Chi.


For most of his students Sam teaches taiji but for those with an extensive background in the arts he teaches yiquan mostly. If you are ever in Northern California you could come train with us where we do yiquan and taiji (no forms just push hands). There is "pure" taiji push hands, "pure" yiquan push hands and "impure" taiji/yiquan push hands.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:14 am

There is no explanation that will suffice.
At most I feel one can only share what they've encountered
practice, or teach.


This clip outlines some of what is shown in TOD clip expressed
in what they feel they'er doing and why...




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQsBJRTPPJc

"there is no distance in the shape, there is distance in my heart"
yep, very nice
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:24 am

Taste of Death wrote:
johnwang wrote:- If you grab on your opponent's wrist so your body and his body are connected, can he still push you away?

- When someone grabs me they become part of me. When I move they move. When his feet leave the floor he may have other things to think about than how strong his wrist grab is.

99.9% of the time, it will end like this. This is why I don't believe in "pushing". When a clinch is established (such as a wrist grabbing), the push just won't work.

Image
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:57 am

johnwang wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:
johnwang wrote:- If you grab on your opponent's wrist so your body and his body are connected, can he still push you away?

- When someone grabs me they become part of me. When I move they move. When his feet leave the floor he may have other things to think about than how strong his wrist grab is.

99.9% of the time, it will end like this. This is why I don't believe in "pushing". When a clinch is established (such as a wrist grabbing), the push just won't work.

Image


That's just not true. When the opponent becomes double weighted he can't let go and when his energy is returned to him he pushes himself away. Don't give your opponent somewhere solid to land. He may think he is going to get a hold of something but he's treading on quicksand.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:07 pm

Taste of Death wrote:That's just not true. When the opponent becomes double weighted he can't let go and when his energy is returned to him he pushes himself away. Don't give your opponent somewhere solid to land. He may think he is going to get a hold of something but he's treading on quicksand.

Do you think the push can break the wrist grip?

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:37 pm

johnwang wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:That's just not true. When the opponent becomes double weighted he can't let go and when his energy is returned to him he pushes himself away. Don't give your opponent somewhere solid to land. He may think he is going to get a hold of something but he's treading on quicksand.

Do you think the push can break the wrist grip?

Image


Yes, but she can grab my wrist anytime. In that case I would pull rather than push.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:53 pm

Taste of Death wrote:Yes, but she can grab my wrist anytime. In that case I would pull rather than push.

So you do agree that when B grabs on A's wrist, it's not proper for A to push B at that moment.

The issue is when you pull, you are playing the wrestling game and you are no longer playing the pushing game. Your pulling may end with a clinch.

Image
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:06 pm

johnwang wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:Yes, but she can grab my wrist anytime. In that case I would pull rather than push.

So you do agree that when B grabs on A's wrist, it's not proper for A to push B at that moment.

The issue is when you pull, you are playing the wrestling game and you are no longer playing the pushing game. Your pulling may end with a clinch.

Image


Like most things, it's complicated. I don't want to let someone touch me, let alone grab my wrist, so I would attack their lead arm as they tried to grab my wrist. But I train to have "springy" arms. So they are elastic-like. When my wrist is grabbed I advance and "hit" their spine with mine. I just let the energy "express" itself.

I go with whatever direction the attacking energy goes. If it comes towards me I let it pass. Just point your finger the way the opponent's energy is travelling and that's where he will go.

In this video Han Jing Chen does not let his opponent grab his wrist. He advances and attacks the lead arm. He does not care what his opponent does. He attacks.

"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:19 pm

Taste of Death wrote:In this video Han Jing Chen does not let his opponent grab his wrist. He advances and attacks the lead arm. He does not care what his opponent does. He attacks.

There are

- before,
- during,
- after.

You are talking about "before". I'm talking about "during" and 'after". If I can't touch you, none of my MA skill can work on you.

What if I can grab on your wrist?

1. You can't push me away.
2. You don't want to pull me into wrestling game.
3. You can start a fist fight game.

In all cases, the push game is over.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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