Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Appledog on Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:22 pm

I never thought I'd see a single thread which encapsulated so many of the major misunderstandings surrounding Tai Chi and the internal arts in one place. This was like a cosmic event -- the planets did align.

Guys, you have to do better. You have to do more research into this stuff. It is not as if we are operating in an information vacuum. We are not. The information and the truth is out there. Do not allow yourself to be deceived by someone else's honor. It will not be counted as your own honor, but as foolishness.
Last edited by Appledog on Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:47 pm

I didn't know he is one of my Shuai Chiao brothers. Do you know when and where (in China, or in Taiwan?) that he had learned Shuai Chiao from my teacher? I think I should know almost all my teacher's students (my SC brothers).

Master Sam Tam
His closest and most influential teachers include:

Eagle Claw (Lau Fat Mang),
Yiquan (Han Xingyuan, Yu Pengxi),
Taijiquan ( Zhang Xiang Wu, Qi Jiangtao),
Xingyiquan ( Han Xingyuan, Zhang Xiang Wu),
Baguazhang ( Han Xingyuan, Zhang Xiang Wu),
Shuaijiao ( Chang Dongshen), and many others
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:02 pm

johnwang wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:In this video Han Jing Chen does not let his opponent grab his wrist. He advances and attacks the lead arm. He does not care what his opponent does. He attacks.

There are

- before,
- during,
- after.

You are talking about "before". I'm talking about "during" and 'after". If I can't touch you, none of my MA skill can work on you.

What if I can grab on your wrist?

1. You can't push me away.
2. You don't want to pull me into wrestling game.
3. You can start a fist fight game.

In all cases, the push game is over.



Yiquan (Mind Boxing) is a striking art. It is the art of awareness (mind). We train to have a relaxed/soft/light body that can respond to any attack. We try to be like a buoy in the water. The waves and tides push us down and around but we always pop back up.

It's not the arms "pushing" it's the whole body advancing forward with the "springy" arms acting like bumpers but allowing the opponent's energy to travel through the relaxed/soft/light arms (bones and tendons doing the lion's share of the structure part because we'd like to have the muscles to be relaxed/soft/light) and filling the spine like a bow. Then I hit their center with my spine and the rest of my mass comes along for the ride so the tip of one finger carries my 200lbs with it (I was 190lbs for 3-4 years but have slipped back to 200lbs). One explanation of sinking the chi is to empty the upper body of tension making it responsive. Without a cima-trained body (not done with forms, applications, etc. but zhan zhuang) it's just a push and if there isn't a significant weight advantage not very effective. Certainly not against a strong ("monster") wrist grab.

We don't look to push the way you understand it. If I was holding a swiss ball and someone ran into me they would presumably bounce off. The body becomes similar to the ball but it has arms to strike, adhere, redirect and legs to step and step on feet and ankles, and kick ankles, shins and knees, and use the knee to attack knees and thighs. And so on.

The body is "pushy". We're not pushing anyone. They're pushing themselves away. Is the swiss ball pushing them?

If someone grabs my wrist with a monster grip and pulls me towards them I will go along for the ride and with a relaxed/soft/light body that has structure (bones and tendons) and filled with cima energy (which is what the mind is focused on and not the wrist grab) I will crash into them and "express" the "energy" through my fingertips.

If someone grabs my wrist with a monster grip and advances towards me I will go along with that, too, but I will point where I want them to go and allow the "energy" to express itself in that direction. When someone grabs me they become part of me. When I move they move.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:12 pm

Appledog wrote:I never thought I'd see a single thread which encapsulated so many of the major misunderstandings surrounding Tai Chi and the internal arts in one place. This was like a cosmic event -- the planets did align.

Guys, you have to do better. You have to do more research into this stuff. It is not as if we are operating in an information vacuum. We are not. The information and the truth is out there. Do not allow yourself to be deceived by someone else's honor. It will not be counted as your own honor, but as foolishness.


I was going to respond to this but since you delete all but your current 100 posts this post, too, will be deleted. -woot-
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:20 pm

johnwang wrote:I didn't know he is one of my Shuai Chiao brothers. Do you know when and where (in China, or in Taiwan?) that he had learned Shuai Chiao from my teacher? I think I should know almost all my teacher's students (my SC brothers).


His father was a doctor in Chiang Kai Shek's army. Sam trained with the army's top instructors starting as young boy and then sought out the best teachers when he was a man. His yiquan teachers were from Hong Kong but I believe the others were from mainland China. He lives in Vancouver where he was a mail carrier for many decades. He used to come down to the Bay Area of California to train when he was younger and teach when he was older.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby everything on Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:56 pm

One reason it's difficult for people to talk about is it's hard to empty ones cup.

The more full your cup the more you think you already know everything. But there is no way in 1000 million lifetimes you can know everything.that is simple logic but still it's impossible.

When I've been thrown it feels a lot like falling.

When I've been "pushed" it doesn't feel like that. You aren't able to do anything just like you can't punch or grab the ocean when it moves you. That is why IMA is so fascinating. It's not about fascia or trips.

Shrug.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:24 pm

everything wrote:When I've been "pushed" it doesn't feel like that. You aren't able to do anything just like you can't punch or grab the ocean when it moves you.

I don't have that kind of experience. I have never been pushed away before. If my hand can grab on any part of my opponent's body, it's almost impossible for my opponent to break my grip.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby greytowhite on Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:28 pm

Having touched hands with Taste of Death and some of the others at a Han shi practice session in Sacramento, I can say that it can feel like an overwhelming sense of pressure, different to the gentle, effortless uprooting I've felt from other people. Imagine trying to push against a bulldozer. I've been working on some of the qualities I learned there within my xingyi and bagua and it's helped me. It's hard to find partners for this stuff though - few people understand it's not a competition but forging ourselves in the beginning stages of this.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:39 pm

Bao wrote:When is it logical to push with gloves or when you use western wrestling rules?

If you can't use this "push" skill in the ring, on the mat, or in street fight, why do you want to develop it? You don't need it for health.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:00 pm

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:When is it logical to push with gloves or when you use western wrestling rules?

If you can't use this "push" skill in the ring, on the mat, or in street fight, why do you want to develop it? You don't need it for health.


One develops a body that people push themselves off of or away from. I don't push I just step. They push themselves away. I'm more interested in hitting them in the head but if they are holding my wrist they may be long gone before my fist can meet their face. They've already thrown themselves away.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:16 pm

Taste of Death wrote:I don't push I just step. They push themselves away. I'm more interested in hitting them in the head but if they are holding my wrist they may be long gone before my fist can meet their face. They've already thrown themselves away.

Do you have any clip to show that?

Assume your opponent holds on your wrists like this, how do you step in and make your opponent to throw himself away?

Last edited by johnwang on Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:30 pm

johnwang wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:I don't push I just step. They push themselves away. I'm more interested in hitting them in the head but if they are holding my wrist they may be long gone before my fist can meet their face. They've already thrown themselves away.

Do you have any clip to show that?

Assume your opponent holds on your wrists like this, how do you step in and make your opponent to throw himself away?




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pDN_r2 ... 64&index=8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRzWxZi ... 64&index=9
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Trick on Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:12 pm

Taste of Death wrote:With yiquan there is a lot less yielding. With taiji one allows the opponent to explore the limits of his range but with yiquan it should repel on contact.

yes these are the differences between them, still the frame the same
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Trick on Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:40 pm

[quote="johnwang"]Every time when I see a "push" clip like this (I'm allergy to push), I always want to ask the following questions:

- Have you ever seen skill like this ever been used in the boxing ring, or on the wrestling mat?
The push is neither punch nor throw. What is it?
/quote]
ive seen boxers push at eachother at the pre-fight weight in/posing press meetings. why do they push at each other ?? i almost develope an allergy towards such behaviours
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Re: Combining Taji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

Postby Bao on Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:19 am

johnwang wrote:If you can't use this "push" skill in the ring, on the mat, or in street fight, why do you want to develop it? .


I didn't ask about using it in street fights. I asked about your own logic about using it with gloves and with a western rules set as you mentioned it.

Why do you want to learn a death strangle hold if you are never going to use it?
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