Elbow strike/stroke

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby robert on Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:49 am

GrahamB wrote:Elbow is elbow but it is also folding and wrapping.

Wang Xiangzhai criticized Taijiquan for having too many postures; I think the same could be said for jin ;D How is folding different from closing? I would classify folding as closing jin (he jin - 合勁).
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:29 am

robert wrote:Wang Xiangzhai criticized Taijiquan for having too many postures; I think the same could be said for jin ;D


All postures are variations on a few basic circles and combinations of them. The eight Jins are actually less about techniques and more about eight distinct methods of body mechanics, foremost variations on closing and opening.

Taijiquan is always about simplifying, not about complicating.

... which by that quote means that Wang didn’t understand the spirit of Taijiquan...

How is folding different from closing? I would classify folding as closing jin (he jin - 合勁).


Folding = collapsing? You can fold an arm against someone else’s arm to prepare a backfist strike, or you can fold your arm in order to block/evade with your forearm or upper arm. Folding in this sense is about making you smaller to reach out inside the other’s frame, or to reach in for closer distance.

Close or hé actually means “connect”, it’s not about closing or folding two parts together. It means to stabilize, to find the spot in each and every posture where the angles of the frame are as strong as possible.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby robert on Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:41 pm

Bao wrote:Folding = collapsing? You can fold an arm against someone else’s arm to prepare a backfist strike, or you can fold your arm in order to block/evade with your forearm or upper arm. Folding in this sense is about making you smaller to reach out inside the other’s frame, or to reach in for closer distance.

Collapsing in taiji is considered an error, it means you don't have jin. To be specific you don't have peng jin. Closing could fold body parts and could be used to evade or neutralize among other things.

Bao wrote:Close or hé actually means “connect”, it’s not about closing or folding two parts together. It means to stabilize, to find the spot in each and every posture where the angles of the frame are as strong as possible.

He (合) has a number of meanings - to close / to join / to fit / to be equal to / whole / together / round (in battle) / conjunction (astronomy) / 1st note of pentatonic scale. The meaning of he depends on context. Are you saying that when people say kai he means open and close they are wrong? It really means open and connect? Are you saying that when people talk about the body opening and closing (kai he) that could not apply to a joint opening and closing - straightening and folding?
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby greytowhite on Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:55 pm

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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:25 pm

Folding is not collapsing it is a positive realignment of energy in response to your opponents changes
If he moves I move first
Neither than a fly alight or a feather land without adjustment be made
However we do collapse to our opponent understanding
We don't keep hard Jin against our force this is not tai chi
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:00 pm

robert wrote:Collapsing in taiji is considered an error, it


Exactly

robert wrote:Are you saying that when people say kai he means open and close they are wrong? It really means open and connect?


Yes. It’s a translation mistake. There’s also another word also used instead of “Kai” which makes more sense.

Kai is like turning on the water, he is like connecting the water to a hose. You don’t want to close the water again when you’ve turned it on, you want to connect it into a structure so it can circulate.
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby robert on Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:17 pm

Bao wrote:
robert wrote:Are you saying that when people say kai he means open and close they are wrong? It really means open and connect?


Yes. It’s a translation mistake. There’s also another word also used instead of “Kai” which makes more sense.

Kai is like turning on the water, he is like connecting the water to a hose. You don’t want to close the water again when you’ve turned it on, you want to connect it into a structure so it can circulate.

We disagree on the meaning of kai he (开合). In taiji the body should always be connected. Kai is expanding, he is condensing; he is storing and kai is releasing. My view.
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:07 pm

I don't think it's necessary to argue about the terms. "Folding" fwiw employs opening and closing. "Open/close" (kai he) is the language used in Sun style. "Start/connect" is (ime) Wu Hao terminology. Imo, it's a mistake to try to cross-apply terms from the various styles; or, to argue that one style's terminology is "correct" or that its interpretation of the classics is the truth.

My point is that I have no idea what a Chen stylist would mean by "folding" technique, and I wouldn't argue with another Yang practitioner that his way is the right way. There are just too many.
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:11 pm

It all depends on what you consider collapsing
One persons collapse might be another's subtle listening,leading and neutralising
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:17 pm

Zhe (one of the 5 elements in Chen tjq and one of the 10 heavenly stems in Yang tjq) shouldn’t be translated as ‘folding’. That’s a mistranslation/ misunderstanding.

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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby Bob on Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:17 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYXZIFlVYxE

Maybe can't separate elbow from full body utilization

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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:11 pm

^^^ But, will it work against taichi? :)
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby Bob on Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:20 pm

LOL - It is taiji - based on the same yin yang principles - different container LOL
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:29 pm

Bao wrote:
robert wrote:Wang Xiangzhai criticized Taijiquan for having too many postures; I think the same could be said for jin ;D


All postures are variations on a few basic circles and combinations of them. The eight Jins are actually less about techniques and more about eight distinct methods of body mechanics, foremost variations on closing and opening.

Taijiquan is always about simplifying, not about complicating.

... which by that quote means that Wang didn’t understand the spirit of Taijiquan...
.

i think he understood. what he meant by "too many postures" was probably that it would make it difficult and take longer time(if ever) for students to get to the essence of it, its an easy "get stuck in the postures" thing for many. as you your self has admitted - too many taiji practitioners hasnt got it . now "Yiquan" can be an stuck in the posture thing too, but only by those who try to self learn from books and such
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:42 pm

Really there are no postures in tai chi just variations of movement
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