Elbow strike/stroke

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby charles on Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:07 pm

Bao wrote:And how many TJQ practitioners have you seen keeping their elbows straight down in the beginning movement “lift hand”.



Feng did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyhKMkuubrQ

Note at :25 the lifting of the left knee. One of the possible applications is to knee an opponent in the outside of the thigh. My teacher did that to me once: I couldn't stand on that leg for half an hour. It can also be used to hook and lift an opponent's foot.

I don’t know if I would say that it’s a bigger secret than things as Dantian coordination or whole body movement....


So just why didn't YCF/ghost writers include any of that in his/their 10 essential points?
Last edited by charles on Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:01 pm

Chen jian zhui zhou (sink the shoulder blade drop the elbow). Jian is the shoulder blades, which you let relax and slip downward, but the deltoid can still be up and tensed, so to loosen the deltoid you let the elbow fall. It’s a very subtle movement of the upper arm/ humerus that relaxes the deltoid in the correct manner. In Chen style bkts the elbow joint is physically high up and out to the side but if this Requirement is done correctly it is considered zhui. It has nothing to do with where the elbow is in the space surrounding you or it’s proximity to your ribcage. It has to do with the humerus bone and that the elbow is the bottom part of that bone. The shoulder blade controls the top of the humerus and the elbow controls the bottom of it. The middle section of the humerus can’t be controlled by itself. CXW said this is also a confusing rule to native Chinese as well.

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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:30 pm

As you know, one move can be used for many different applications. One of the common applications of fist protecting heart is an elbow strike to the chest, intended, I was told, to create an injury similar to what killed Princess Dianna.

James Dean as well. Actually it’s a common thing in China that happens to people who always keep their chests puffed up because that causes the pericardium to gradually become contracted all the time, instead of being relaxed and only contracting when you get hit in the chest. Bodybuilders who bounce the bar off their chest when doing bench presses are also cutting their lives short.

My point was that just because something is done with a Fali doesn’t necessarily mean it’s only a strike. As Cxw said every movement can and should be learned to be done with a Fali, similar to Pao Chui (Cannon fist form), only CF truly is an advanced form and it’s better to learn the 1st form with Fali in every movement, before you even try to learn CF. Only it’s better to learn and practice Fali during Dan Lian (single movement practice of movements from the form) since the form is actually a Xing Zhuang (moving meditation) and it’s better to practice the form in that manner of intermittent Fali (every 8 or so moves) but you would just change/ stagger the Fali to different moves dispersed throughout the form.

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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:43 pm

If you want the second 4 energies in yang style go to San shou
Enough elbows there to suit anyone
Folding is the secret to elbow
Hand/elbow/shoulder
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby robert on Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:50 pm

GrahamB wrote:Interested to hear people's thoughts on elbow (zhou) in Tai Chi. Zhou is said to be one of the 8 energies/powers of Tai Chi Chuan.

It's one of the 8 powers, so presumably quite important. Or is it really? Is that theory just an unnecessary layer of neo-Confucian intellectual elite bullshit plastered over a highly practical art of the common people? Why is "knee" or "foot" or "head" not one of the 8 powers?

What do you think?

The 8 jin is one sub group of jin. I've seen lists of 25 jin and 30 some jin. I think peng, lu, ji, and an is a really common sub group. They are the 4 jin that are used in a number of basic push hands routines and they appear in many traditional taijiquan forms early in the form. These are considered the primary jin. Cai, lie, zhou, and kao are used in the da lu push hands pattern and are considered secondary jin. The eight jin are specific jin or jin that are also associated with techniques, as opposed to more general jin like ting jin, used in push hands. My 2 cents.
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby Trick on Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:30 pm

we learn about the use of the elbow already in simple single PH. no mystery there
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby Bao on Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:20 am

charles wrote:
Bao wrote:And how many TJQ practitioners have you seen keeping their elbows straight down in the beginning movement “lift hand”.


Feng did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyhKMkuubrQ


Don't think so. Downwards, not straight down. You can't keep your elbows straight down when you keep your palms lying flat in a horizontal position unless you twist your arm strongly. Sun stylists keep their elbows down in the beginning movement, they lift their arms while keeping the palms vertical facing each other. Yang stylists usually do not.

So just why didn't YCF/ghost writers include any of that in his/their 10 essential points?


Why don't you ask YCF's ghost? BTW, the essential is (5) "Sink Shoulder, Drop Elbow." As Glenn pointed out, "shoulder" in fact the shoulder blades. This is an aspect connected to (2) "Contain the Chest, Raise the Back". If you keep your chest hollowed and your armpits opened, there is no way you can keep your elbows hanging straight down to the floor when you move. The key is to keep a feeling or slightly press this area downwards and moving your arms from this position. If you understand to work with (2) and (5) properly together you will achieve a feeling of your arms as they partially were moving by themselves as you learn how to control the lifting and sinking of the limbs from the spine, which is one of the main points with these principle in combination. People usually say that they use qi when they achieve that feeling of the limbs raising and sinking by themselves, but this feeling is very much a function of body connections in a quite physical way, that you learn to move in a certain way, learning to use your body in a specific connected way that results in a whole body generated movement that feels light and effortless (and the limbs can feel very heavy at the same time). But I wouldn’t call this Yang style specific or a secret, if I would regard something as "secrets" specially for Yang style, I would put YCF's 9th and 10th point first on the list. If you don't understand and use "chousi” throughout your movements, your Tai Chi could not be called Yang.
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby charles on Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:52 am

Bao wrote: You can't keep your elbows straight down when you keep your palms lying flat in a horizontal position unless you twist your arm strongly.


Exactly.
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby Steve James on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:14 am

Well, "dropped elbows" do not point "straight" down. :) It's not necessary to "keep your palms lying" in any particular position. I.e., the elbow can point "straight" down when the palm is turned inward. Imo, it'd be hard to smack or chop someone with the elbow elevated. However, I'm not limited by what people say the rules of tcc are. Ymmv.
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:20 am

wayne hansen wrote:If you want the second 4 energies in yang style go to San shou
Enough elbows there to suit anyone
Folding is the secret to elbow
Hand/elbow/shoulder


That's how I learned it. Zhou is folding and striking
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby charles on Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:02 am

oragami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Folding is the secret to elbow
Hand/elbow/shoulder


That's how I learned it. Zhou is folding and striking


What do each of you mean by "folding" in the context of the elbow? When the hand fails to land, you bend the arm, move in further and strike with the elbow?
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:06 am

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Folding is the secret to elbow
Hand/elbow/shoulder


That's how I learned it. Zhou is folding and striking


What do each of you mean by "folding" in the context of the elbow? When the hand fails to land, you bend the arm, move in further and strike with the elbow?


If the hand is attacked/stuck, fold and use the elbow, if the elbow is stuck fold back to the hand or to the shoulder, if the shoulder is stuck, fold to the elbow or head, basically.
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby charles on Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:49 am

oragami_itto wrote:If the hand is attacked/stuck, fold and use the elbow, if the elbow is stuck fold back to the hand or to the shoulder, if the shoulder is stuck, fold to the elbow or head, basically.


What you are describing, if I understand correctly, is folding, in general - when one "joint" is stuck, one folds and uses the next one that isn't. How is that "the secret of elbow/zhou"? The elbow's main use is only after another joint is stuck/neutralized?
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:06 am

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:If the hand is attacked/stuck, fold and use the elbow, if the elbow is stuck fold back to the hand or to the shoulder, if the shoulder is stuck, fold to the elbow or head, basically.


What you are describing, if I understand correctly, is folding, in general - when one "joint" is stuck, one folds and uses the next one that isn't. How is that "the secret of elbow/zhou"? The elbow's main use is only after another joint is stuck/neutralized?


I didn't say anything about it being secret. Just that, rather than focusing on the anatomical elbow, that the energy zhou refers to folding and striking with any of a number of anatomical weapons. That's folding. And striking. One need not fold to strike, and one need not wait until a joint is stuck to fold, that's just one layer of understanding. The same concept lends itself to chaining strikes together, and also the legs.

But, seeing as how so many are convinced it refers only to hitting something with your elbow, maybe it IS kind of secret.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Elbow strike/stroke

Postby Bob on Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:27 am

Somewhere in my past I recall learning a praying mantis form which focused on elbows i.e. ba zhou. One of the 1st standing exercises I learned consisted rolling elbows downward then rolling them upward and then raising the knee upward crossing over with a downward elbow strike both sides. In the bagua I learned there is a quasilinear elbow form - Bisio teaches a 12 elbow form in his bagua system and there are a significant number of elbow strikes in my six harmony short punch form - seems it's prevalent in a lot of systems

I guess what I am so surprised about is the "surprise" that one would find it in any taiji system too
Last edited by Bob on Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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