the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

BruceP wrote:

johnwang wrote:

middleway wrote:Useful for what?

I'm glad that I'm not the only person who asks this question. Why do I want to spend my training time to develop a skill that's useless in the ring, or on the mat? Can you use the elastic principle to deal with a punch to the head, or a roundhouse kick to the leg? You can't.

Yes, you can. I've used that method in a couple of MMA matches (posted a video showing it back-to-back with Single-Whip using the same extension/'elastic'), and so have a couple of my training partners - one of whom was in a clip I posted a long time ago showing the same Impact Management I've written about here at RSF in the past.

Are you saying that if his opponent punches on his head, he can still use "松紧带“ elastic principle to bounce his opponent backward?

BruceP wrote:

johnwang wrote:

middleway wrote:Useful for what?

I'm glad that I'm not the only person who asks this question. Why do I want to spend my training time to develop a skill that's useless in the ring, or on the mat? Can you use the elastic principle to deal with a punch to the head, or a roundhouse kick to the leg? You can't.

Yes, you can. I've used that method in a couple of MMA matches (posted a video showing it back-to-back with Single-Whip using the same extension/'elastic'), and so have a couple of my training partners - one of whom was in a clip I posted a long time ago showing the same Impact Management I've written about here at RSF in the past.

The teacher basically outlining wave principles and demoing how the body can be trained to react as such in either absorbing force or issuing force. The what and how to do it is different from exploring the why and when.

Don't quite understand why the training of a skill is confused with the using the skill after its developed.

johnwang wrote:Are you saying that if his opponent punches on his head, he can still use "松紧带“ elastic principle to bounce his opponent backward?

John, I don't know anything about that guy and don't understand what he's saying. I only understood what he was showing while he was explaining the idea and demonstrating it. One of my Wu Teachers showed me the same things.

The idea isn't to necessarily bounce the other person backward. I learned it a means of managing contact with a wave response.

BruceP wrote:I learned it a means of managing contact with a wave response.

Can you (general YOU) develop your wave ability on your head through your neck?

johnwang wrote:

BruceP wrote:I learned it a means of managing contact with a wave response.

Can you (general YOU) develop your wave ability on your head through your neck?

Why do you continually engage in these nonsensical discussions? Who lets someone kick them in the head? I (general I) would get out of the way or block the kick.

Taste of Death wrote:Why do you continually engage in these nonsensical discussions? Who lets someone kick them in the head? I (general I) would get out of the way or block the kick.

Nonsensical discussion? I just try to remind people that punch can come toward your head as well.

So you do agree that you will use different MA skill to deal with head punch.

Here is my concern. One spends 10 years to develop his wave ability. During the 1st fight that his opponent knocks him down with a head punch. What's good with his 10 years of wave ability training?

This come back to my original question. If one can't use this skill in the ring where most punches are aiming toward the head, why does he want to develop this ability for?

johnwang wrote:

Taste of Death wrote:Why do you continually engage in these nonsensical discussions? Who lets someone kick them in the head? I (general I) would get out of the way or block the kick.

Nonsensical discussion? I just try to remind people that punch can come toward your head as well.

So you do agree that you will use different MA skill to deal with head punch.

Here is my concern. One spends 10 years to develop his wave ability. During the 1st fight that his opponent knocks him down with a head punch. What's good with his 10 years of wave ability training?

This come back to my original question. If one can't use this skill in the ring where most punches are aiming toward the head, why does he want to develop this ability for?

Xingyi uses Pi Quan
Yiquan uses Pao Quan

...to defend the head.

johnwang wrote:

BruceP wrote:I learned it a means of managing contact with a wave response.

Can you (general YOU) develop your wave ability on your head through your neck?

punch to the head not wave but weave, bob and weave. the whole body including the neck as having a wavey energy

[quote="johnwang"
Are you saying that if his opponent punches on his head, he can still use "松紧带“ elastic principle to bounce his opponent backward?

[/quote]


from my personal experience -- something similar to this
(structure, rooting, grounding, and rebounding the force back to the opponent)
does work when punched in the face


years ago
a senior kung fu brother who was a formal disciple of my teacher
(I am guessing he had an issue with my close relationship with our teacher)

anyways- he decided that while doing a simple push hands exercise with me
to punch me as hard as he could in the face

it did not have the effect he was hoping for
(and he also did not bounce back..)
but i felt the force go in through my chin, down my body to the ground and then bounce back into him
his eyes were very wide in shock.. lol



so yes -- from my personal experience
there are some skills that are applicable for a free fighting situation
(or in my case - a sucker punch - ambush type situation)

you would not train them by having someone repeatedly punch you in the face...

they come from other training
(which many "reality" type training people think is useless)
and they manifest in application when they are needed..

its training GONG
that will come out in the usage

but the gong doesn't directly map to the usage
it develops skills that can then be used


Franklin

having somewhat of an expetience to that too, but not being punched on the chin but instead straight on the forehead had no effect att all. maybe not some wave energy but more neck-spine alinement with a forward move hurt the punchers fist/wrist

johnwang wrote:

Taste of Death wrote:Why do you continually engage in these nonsensical discussions? Who lets someone kick them in the head? I (general I) would get out of the way or block the kick.

Nonsensical discussion? I just try to remind people that punch can come toward your head as well.

So you do agree that you will use different MA skill to deal with head punch.

Here is my concern. One spends 10 years to develop his wave ability. During the 1st fight that his opponent knocks him down with a head punch. What's good with his 10 years of wave ability training?

This come back to my original question. If one can't use this skill in the ring where most punches are aiming toward the head, why does he want to develop this ability for?

The posted demonstration videos of "repel on contact" and "elastic force" are performed under demonstration rules/etiquette where the opponent stands in place and freezes his hand on contact:



In the live yiquan partner drills and san shou videos posted—where the opponent moves and retracts his punches, practitioners "use different MA skill to deal with head or body punch" compared with the posted demo videos. A couple more yiquan san shou videos.

Fabyius
Published on Mar 18, 2009

Yao Chengguang demonstrates Yiquan free fight training methods:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSjWR4-Yg-w

Andrzej Kalisz
Published on Aug 3, 2011

Master Yao Chengguang's students demonstrating yiquan san shou at Wang Xiangzhai 120th anniversary conference. Beijing 2005. http://www.yiquannet.com:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Rn-lkPzk0

In light of the posted videos, broadening your original question may make more sense: If one can't use the demonstrated skill (in partner drills, san shou, ring or mat), why does he want to develop this ability for?

marvin8 wrote: If one can't use the demonstrated skill (in partner drills, san shou, ring or mat), why does he want to develop this ability for?

This is exactly my point. Here is another example. I can do this "飄(Piao) - floating hand" in demo. I can't use this on the mat. It's very difficult for me to convince my students to train this principle.

This highlights one of the problems with the Yaos approach to yiquan. They have combined it with western boxing and not good boxing at that. In yiquan, like xingyi, we move forward and attack. There is no backing down. Do you see any power, let alone full body power, on display in the Yao videos?

Full body power. The whole body moving as one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zarQxC- ... 58E063C164

Nice clip TOD.
Punch is not push.