the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

of all things to look for i was looking up on chuck norris filmography on the wiki and as it often turn out when on the wiki one thing lead to other things - a korean martial arts master "hwang kee" a leading figure in the developing of "tang soo do" a korean martial art, the one mr.norris later came to master and use to become a great actor ...from the wiki on hwang kee

At this time in China, it was hard for any martial artist to find a master willing to take them on as a student. Despite this, Hwang Kee became acquainted with Master Yang, who taught Hwang Kee the northern style Yang kung-fu (Nei-ga-ryu), a stronger and more passive art than the southern style that can be used at close quarters. Following the conclusion of World War II, Hwang Kee returned to Korea.

would this "yang kung-fu (nei-ga-ryu)" have anything to do with any cima's, maybe even yang taijiquan ? ...

Hwang Kee's studies of Chinese martial arts are shrouded in mystery. His Kwan, "Moo Duk Kwan" was one of the 5 or so early Taekwondo kwans, but they left early and so ended up as a kind of "old style taekwondo." The forms were however directly out of Shotokan karate, which seems to have been the old state of taekwondo, before they started to "Koreanize" it. The Shotokan forms apparently Hwang learned from books.

There are some unique forms as well at advanced levels, like "ten hands" and the like, but they don't have a Chinese flavor. My guess is that Hwang's study of Chinese arts was probably limited, but he liked them better and chose to identify with them. I read somewhere that the "softer" method of China were not really liked by Korean students, who wanted more of the "hard" stuff, so perhaps that was one reason why Chinese influence got less and less...

My late friend Bob Caputo was an adopted son of Hwang Gee
Hwang always said that the ultimate in his art was the 3 Internal arts
His art went from karate to southern Shaolin to northern Shaolin
Bob also taught me noi gung and muscle change that he said came from Hwang
His students would always train with me in Sydney
If a karate guy came in I would always get bobs student phil out to demo karate
That was usually enough to impress the hell out of them
The forms and kicking in tsd were excellent
I learnt two of Hwang gees Shaolin sets
Dancing swan and lion monkey
Not many people got to the point where they went past the karate forms
I will try and put some photos from bobs book up on the Facebook site
Bob gave me and signed the first copy of the book
I found out later a few people had the first copy

Interesting stuff Wayne - I did see names of some Chinese-sounding forms in the curriculum lists long ago - but they came up really late (5th degree black belt, or something like that). I practiced tang soo do as a kid, but we never saw any of that.

I'd love to know more, or even see a bit of the forms, if that is possible.

yes interesting info Wayne....as i wrote when looking up something on the wiki it will lead to find more things. for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwonbeop and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subak

I haven't practiced either of the forms I learnt for over 30 years
I saw a lion monkey on a doco just recently and wished I hadn't stopped practicing it
I think bob was a sixth dan
Unfortunately at the time of his death none of his students were up to the Chinese part of his curriculum
Some had learnt tai chi as he taught that early,his form was yang style from a mantis school in Vietnam
Huang kee farmed bob out to other teachers to learn various things
He studied Shi pal ge,moo duc Kwan and soo bak do as well as pa kua with park Bok nam before he moved to the states
If you can get a hold of bobs book it gives a detailed history

Bit of a shame if Hwang Kee did actually have skill in CMA, as it does seem that he did not transmit it to his school. Somewhat bizarre to train CMA yourself, and have all your students go through the Shotokan curriculum and fighting style. Also a shame that his CMA did not ultimately influence the taekwondo that developed back then.

Moodukkwan = soobakdo = tangsoodo (some reasons for different names, but the same school).
Shippalgi is different, though (some people doubt its history, though).

Hwang Kee's (biological) son lives in NJ, I think. I wonder if he learned lion monkey, etc.

On YouTube, I see a "new" series of "Chilsung" forms ("seven stars" - so 7 of them) that Hwang Kee had developed (I don't think that they were in the curriculum when I learned in the 90s). The Chinese influence is very clear (especially Yang taiji), but its flavor is still very karate/taekwondo (straight and angular!). Interesting in any case that this is how Hwang decided to leave what he learned to his organization.

(It does not seem that the original Chinese forms are taught anymore.)

Yes, it was my impression that most of the Korean”Karate” was directly influenced by Shotokan Karate, so was a little surprised to read that there was supposed to be some direct Chinese martial arts I fluences too....Its interesting how karate practitioners/masters even founders of karate systems that have learned CMA and in some cases for many years in China throughout in history seemingly end up/continues with the somewhat(more or less) “straight and angular” Karate way.....Well maybe the founders of the Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu and even very early Shorin-ryu had a more “Chinese” touch, or maybe the “Chinese” touch where not too different from what we see in todays “traditional” karate styles “.......of course the styles I mentioned here seemingly had their origins in southern China. Also interesting is that the founder of Ueshi-ryu set up his first “karate” school in Nanjing some year before moving back to Japan/Okinawa

The linear/angular flavor of karate is especially clear in kata competitions - in a way, it is amazing that people can move in such a linear/angular way!

I guess that in Korea, the linear/angular methods were more impressive to the people, so that is what they chose to develop and keep.

The "pure" Chinese methods still in Korea, like Lu Shuitian's bagua, still looks very Chinese in flavor, on the other hand.

yes the linear/angular flavor seem more impressive in such practice as karate kata. but the(traditional) kata in kata competitions i watched lately look quite distorted, way too long pauses seemingly everywhere in the performances of them. there use to be more of a "flow" way back

edededed wrote:I guess that in Korea, the linear/angular methods were more impressive to the people, so that is what they chose to develop and keep.

That was when China was still being referred to as the "sick man of Asia." Given the political climate, it is unsurprising that overtly Chinese influences would be dropped in favor of aspects that were more similar to what the Japanese were doing.

It was due to the fact that South Korea was fighting the Chinese communists
Nothing Chinese was acceptable
That is why the whole history of Tae Kwan do was created

Well - Koreans had a conundrum, as they were extremely anti-communist at the time (and had to be, or else be suspected as a Northern sympathizer), but also anti-Japanese as well.

But I think that the Japanese-ish methods were just easier to understand and use right away.