Winning through psychology?

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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:43 pm

h4890 wrote:
marvin8 wrote:I wasn't there. However, I noticed the words you used:
Thinking of winning, opponent, being in a duel, war or one is "a dangerous man" may contribute to turning asking someone to remove their shoes from a bus seat into an attack. In contrast, the posted video suggests to start by making it about them. You eat the bitter.


Oh but here you completely misunderstood me. When I am talking about what I read, I'm reflecting on my question at large and referring to language used in those books. I'm not saying that I quoted those authors or used to words in the encounter. So again, you are responding to something that did not take place. As for bitterness, I'll gladly eat it, since the seats are more clean, and hopefully the guy learned the lesson that he cannot shut everyone up with threats and violence.

However, I feel that our discussion is moving away from my question at large, and we are getting stuck in how I did or did not react in this situation, and this is not something that I would like to discuss in this thread, since I'm more interested in psychological strategies to use in encounters. You did comment on (or the guy in the video) breathing and creating space, and this is sound advice.

But would you mind if we continued our discussion about me, my ego and how I act either in a separate thread or IM? It might be valuable for me and you, to better understand each other, but I don't think it is very valuable for the rest of the world.

Neither did I misunderstand nor say you "quoted those authors or used those words in the encounter."

You misstated or misunderstood the video. He said, "If you empathize with them, you give them every opportunity to make it about them. Eating the bitter. You’re the one going to look like the fool. Your ego has to take a back seat."
The Guerrilla Self-Protection Solution on Oct 25, 2018 wrote:De-escalating the situation is more about empathy with the individual. Assuming they are not predatory, you may be able to avoid a physical confrontation by choosing to not let your ego get into the battle:

The actions you took are opposite of what is taught to law enforcement and security. You made him look like the fool. As a result, he retaliated by punching you in the face. So, you didn't win and your question wasn't answered, "Winning without throwing a punch, or perhaps 'setting the stage?'"

Instead of making him look like a fool, you could have put your ego aside, empathized, unarmed him and given him the chance to do the right thing or be the "nice person." In turn, he may have taken his shoes off the seat, not punch you in the face and learned a lesson. Most would say that answers your questions. "How one acts" is integral to the discussion of "psychological strategies to use in encounters."
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:46 pm

h4890 wrote:
Trick wrote:ive was in a "similar" buss incident years back...


Thank you for sharing Trick. I would probably be as surprised as you were by the woman! In my case, the few people that were present choose to look the other way, and after the incident, they looked a bit ashamed of themselves.

You don't happen to live in Sweden do you? It's the only country I know of, where the racist argument comes up so often and in every conceivable situation.

Best regards,
Dan

yes this was in sweden almost 20 years ago now(live in china now). indeed i was surprised by that middleaged woman taking the part of people that obviously misbehaved. the few other on that bus where clearly acting as not notice...Although ive lived in china many years now but still getting surprised when some youngsters getting told by someone senior to them that for example take the feets of the seat or lower their voices, they do without any argument.
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:28 pm

another incident i remember well even it happened back when i was a kid. i was with my mother(who was quite a small woman) about to enter a supermarket, outside stood a big guy violently waving his arms/hands toward people and yelling rudenesses, i got worried. but my mother stopped infront of him and calmly told him 'if she where a big strong guy she would beat the shit out of him' he got quiet and just stood there as a question mark and we went in to the market. he was no longer there when we left.. this was in the early 70's.
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby roger hao on Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:51 pm

Dan -
I did not suggest to go around tensed for a fight -
I meant - Don't poke the bear
You became the antagonist but oblivious to the result?
If you cannot understand that you cannot achieve winning without fighting.
Fighting is a cooperative activity of trading blows.
If you never get hit you are not fighting.
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby roger hao on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:35 am

Dan -
My comment about the grandmother is simple -
In protecting yourself by allowing a mad dog to run free you endangered
others in society that he will come across and believe it is OK to punch
them in the face. You should have taught him that it is not OK.
Getting hit in the face is not winning. Here is the way -
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby roger hao on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:39 am

Dan -
Notice that the old guy was not fighting because he was not getting hit.
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby Trick on Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:26 am

Maybe this can be of some guidance? https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles ... r-explain/
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby h4890 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:38 am

marvin8 wrote:The actions you took are opposite of what is taught to law enforcement and security. You made him look like the fool. As a result, he retaliated by punching you in the face. So, you didn't win and your question wasn't answered, "Winning without throwing a punch, or perhaps 'setting the stage?'"

Instead of making him look like a fool, you could have put your ego aside, empathized, unarmed him and given him the chance to do the right thing or be the "nice person." In turn, he may have taken his shoes off the seat, not punch you in the face and learned a lesson. Most would say that answers your questions. "How one acts" is integral to the discussion of "psychological strategies to use in encounters."


Well, one way of looking at it is that he was a fool and a criminal. Also I do not share your opinion that asking someone to remove their feet from a seat is to make them look like a fool. That is in my opinion a completely ridiculous attitude as I think I mentioned somewhere further up the thread.

Again, please note the question mark in my title, it is not an exclamation mark. If I had the answer to the question I would not ask you. However, I believe that I won the encounter, since I achieved my objective of getting the feet removed from the seat. Your opinion is to the contrary. You have not convinced me, and I have not convinced you.

I think we should agree to disagree, because this is just getting annoying and a waste of time. You repeat your message and I again, repeat that I do not agree with you.

Best regards,
Dan
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby h4890 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:41 am

Trick wrote:yes this was in sweden almost 20 years ago now(live in china now). indeed i was surprised by that middleaged woman taking the part of people that obviously misbehaved. the few other on that bus where clearly acting as not notice...Although ive lived in china many years now but still getting surprised when some youngsters getting told by someone senior to them that for example take the feets of the seat or lower their voices, they do without any argument.


It makes me sad that I was able to guess the country this experience took place in. :'( Sweden is no longer what it used to be decades ago. However, china sounds like a great place in where a civilized society and respect for elders is still alive. Maybe I should join you and move to china? :)

Best regards,
Dan
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby h4890 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:42 am

Trick wrote:another incident i remember well even it happened back when i was a kid. i was with my mother(who was quite a small woman) about to enter a supermarket, outside stood a big guy violently waving his arms/hands toward people and yelling rudenesses, i got worried. but my mother stopped infront of him and calmly told him 'if she where a big strong guy she would beat the shit out of him' he got quiet and just stood there as a question mark and we went in to the market. he was no longer there when we left.. this was in the early 70's.


One word... respect! :D

Best regards,
Dan
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby h4890 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:47 am

roger hao wrote:Dan -
I did not suggest to go around tensed for a fight -
I meant - Don't poke the bear
You became the antagonist but oblivious to the result?
If you cannot understand that you cannot achieve winning without fighting.
Fighting is a cooperative activity of trading blows.
If you never get hit you are not fighting.


Well, I do not share your definition of fighting as a "cooperative activity of trading blows". In my book, fighting is way more on many different levels. Since we are arguing based on different definitions, we will never reach a conclusion. Needless to say, I believe in fighting even though you never get hit or never throw a punch.

As for poking bears, I will not engage with a raging lunatic who is on drugs, screaming and wielding a machete. That is a bear I will not pole unless I have to. Asking someone to put out a cigarette if the smoke blows in my face, lowering their voice, removing their feet of the seat, has nothing to do with poking bears. Those are rational, simple, requests that can be made in civilized societies without any need to prepare for blows.

If there would be a need to prepare for that, for those very simple and natural acts, then that is not a society, it is a barbarian jungle and I will either arm myself or move somewhere else. ;)

Best regards,
Dan
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby h4890 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:59 am

roger hao wrote:Dan -
My comment about the grandmother is simple -
In protecting yourself by allowing a mad dog to run free you endangered
others in society that he will come across and believe it is OK to punch
them in the face. You should have taught him that it is not OK.
Getting hit in the face is not winning. Here is the way -


Hm, no, I think I struck quite a nice balance. This guy is probably used to threatening people hurling verbal abuse and getting his way through threat of force. True, he did get in a weak punch, but for once the person was not shut up and he did remove his feet, and his friend stepped in between. I think it is unreasonable to knock someone out or break someones nose because they wave at you, and even hit you with a weak punch.

Would it have been better if I would have broken his nose? Poked out his eye? Or maybe just broken his finger? I don't think so. Why?

First of all, it's 2 against 1 and 2 opponents who are bigger and stronger, while the 1 opponent is in a cramped space. I suspect that if I would have escalated, I would be left unconscious or maybe dead on the floor of the bus, and there would be no lesson learned.

Second, if I somehow would have fought off and won over 2 bigger guys, maiming them, they would be full of anger and vengeance, and take out their anger even more on someone weaker later on. I think in this case, that violence would breed violence.

So I think they experienced something new and just maybe, learned something. A person that does not shut up when being threatened, and they were worried since they left in the end and did not finish the job when we were out on the street.

Best regards,
Dan
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby h4890 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:11 am

Trick wrote:Maybe this can be of some guidance? https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles ... r-explain/


Haha.. oh what a relief! Thank you Trick, this is just what I needed to hear. :) I think this discussion thread is over for me and I also wish you the best of luck in your continued education of the young. ;) If you ever again visit Sweden it would be great to have a beer and compare notes.

Best regards,
Dan
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:52 am

h4890 wrote:
marvin8 wrote:The actions you took are opposite of what is taught to law enforcement and security. You made him look like the fool. As a result, he retaliated by punching you in the face. So, you didn't win and your question wasn't answered, "Winning without throwing a punch, or perhaps 'setting the stage?'"

Instead of making him look like a fool, you could have put your ego aside, empathized, unarmed him and given him the chance to do the right thing or be the "nice person." In turn, he may have taken his shoes off the seat, not punch you in the face and learned a lesson. Most would say that answers your questions. "How one acts" is integral to the discussion of "psychological strategies to use in encounters."


Well, one way of looking at it is that he was a fool and a criminal. Also I do not share your opinion that asking someone to remove their feet from a seat is to make them look like a fool. That is in my opinion a completely ridiculous attitude as I think I mentioned somewhere further up the thread.

The word "fool" is used in the training video and illustrates the difference in approaches.

That's neither my opinion nor the opinion taught to law enforcement and security. It's not that you ask but, how you ask it: in a way that escalates the situation or de-escalates it. Those are two different approaches: Your approach which resulted in a punch to your face. The law enforcement and security approach (putting your ego aside) that may result in the subject cooperating without violence.

h4890 wrote:Again, please note the question mark in my title, it is not an exclamation mark. If I had the answer to the question I would not ask you. However, I believe that I won the encounter, since I achieved my objective of getting the feet removed from the seat.

Many would believe you lost the encounter. Because, it escalated into violence with a punch to your face—as opposed to no violence with shoes taken off the seat.

h4890 wrote:Your opinion is to the contrary. You have not convinced me, and I have not convinced you.

I think we should agree to disagree, because this is just getting annoying and a waste of time. You repeat your message and I again, repeat that I do not agree with you.

It's not my opinion. It's the common approach taught to law enforcement and security, who experience this type of encounter every day, that you are not convinced and disagree with.

I replied to your continued misstatements or misunderstandings with the intention of clarifying.
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Winning through psychology?

Postby roger hao on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:16 pm

Dan -
This is humor - or at least my version -

Fighting is a cooperative activity of trading blows.
If you never get hit you are not fighting.

You need to lighten up. If you want to win without fighting you
need to develop an element of what they call malandragem.
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