Walking stick jin

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Walking stick jin

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:11 am

I fashioned a walking stick from a stick on a walk through the woods. An interesting dynamic to use one as you walk, since I've never used one before.

If you time it right it really gives you a forward kick on the flat, which is when I realised that it's essentially a shortcut to using Jin. You push your weight down into the ground through the stick and it propels you forward from your feet using the power of the ground.

In Tai Chi we're essentially trying to do this 'force down then up' inside our own legs when we use Jin in a technique like, say, push. It's very hard to know what that's meant to feel like unless you have somebody to show you, and even then you need the gumption to perceive how it's done and how it's different to a usual shoulder push. Experimenting with a walking stick while you walk may help you get the feel quicker.

Thoughts?
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby Appledog on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:32 am

GrahamB wrote:I fashioned a walking stick from a stick on a walk through the woods. An interesting dynamic to use one as you walk, since I've never used one before.

If you time it right it really gives you a forward kick on the flat, which is when I realised that it's essentially a shortcut to using Jin. You push your weight down into the ground through the stick and it propels you forward from your feet using the power of the ground.

In Tai Chi we're essentially trying to do this 'force down then up' inside our own legs when we use Jin in a technique like, say, push. It's very hard to know what that's meant to feel like unless you have somebody to show you, and even then you need the gumption to perceive how it's done and how it's different to a usual shoulder push. Experimenting with a walking stick while you walk may help you get the feel quicker.

Thoughts?


My first impression is that you are talking about xingyi (or even changquan/chaquan mechanics) because you are talking about the rebound force from a step, which does not exist in taiji in that manner. As it turns out the people promoting these ideas generally have a much greater experience with non-taiji martial arts, especially xingyiquan, than with taiji. Generally speaking what you describe is a facet of more physically active arts such as those I mentioned in comparison to arts like tai chi and as I have seen it liuhebafa, which rely exclusively on relaxed (song) movement to provide indicators. In that sense, if someone were to require relaxation and song over the kind of training that promotes this bounce-energy along the qi tissues, you would be correct in saying their practice is no good without some secondary external balancing component (such as, oh, say, reverse breathing). You would both be right, actually -- just within different (related) spheres of internal martial art. But since you mention this WRT Taijiquan you should know it is technically incorrect WRT taijiquan, if you want to discuss taijiquan on it's own apart from how it is similar to related arts.

The divergence comes early -- at or about the first 6 months to year of training is my guess.
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:46 am

Appledog, I think you're getting what I'm talking about confused with martial arts that stamp hard into the ground. Like, say Baji. Whether that is correct Baji or not (I don't know) at least some people do stamp. You see the same in some styles of XingYi also "move with the sound of thunder/landslide".

But to be clear, I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about properly done Tai Chi. For his faults in other areas, I think Chen Manching was a good example of power coming up from the ground. There's no need for stamping. It's 'soft'. The same way as there's no need for stamping a walking stick into the ground. There's just sinking. Sinking through a relaxed frame (song) lets the power got up from the ground and out the hands.

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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:01 am

Some Baji for comparison:

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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby johnwang on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:31 am

GrahamB wrote:Some Baji for comparison:


This footwork that you

- Move in leading right leg.
- Slide back left leg next to right leg (side cat stance).
- Advance left leg forward.
- Right leg slide and follow (end with 4-6, or 3-7 stance).

is also used in the Xing Yi, long fist, preying mantis system. Why Taiji doesn't use this footwork? The reason is unknown.

All power are generated from

- bottom and up.
- back and front.

This is just general guideline. All MA systems have to follow this guide line, and Taiji is included.
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I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:21 am

GrahamB wrote:I fashioned a walking stick from a stick on a walk through the woods. An interesting dynamic to use one as you walk, since I've never used one before.

If you time it right it really gives you a forward kick on the flat, which is when I realised that it's essentially a shortcut to using Jin. You push your weight down into the ground through the stick and it propels you forward from your feet using the power of the ground.

In Tai Chi we're essentially trying to do this 'force down then up' inside our own legs when we use Jin in a technique like, say, push. It's very hard to know what that's meant to feel like unless you have somebody to show you, and even then you need the gumption to perceive how it's done and how it's different to a usual shoulder push. Experimenting with a walking stick while you walk may help you get the feel quicker.

Thoughts?

Cool. I was a kid the last time I used a walking stick and that was more to just play with. So I can’t really get the sense of that.

What do think about walking with crutches or even one crutch under your shoulder?
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:06 pm

I'd have to play about with one or two, I'd expect it to be a different kind of dynamic. I'd have to try it though. I mean logically your weight still goes through them to the ground, so jin would be involved, but the contact point with your body is much higher up...
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby Appledog on Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:55 pm

GrahamB wrote:Appledog, I think you're getting what I'm talking about confused with martial arts that stamp hard into the ground. Like, say Baji. Whether that is correct Baji or not (I don't know) at least some people do stamp. You see the same in some styles of XingYi also "move with the sound of thunder/landslide".

But to be clear, I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about properly done Tai Chi. For his faults in other areas, I think Chen Manching was a good example of power coming up from the ground. There's no need for stamping. It's 'soft'. The same way as there's no need for stamping a walking stick into the ground. There's just sinking. Sinking through a relaxed frame (song) lets the power got up from the ground and out the hands.


But what is "properly done Tai Chi". You should know I am suspicious of the CMC camp, probably needlessly so, but it seems to be a consistant theme I hear from the crowds I hang out with. Re-reading your post it does seem like you are talking about something similar to what I said though; "You push your weight down into the ground through the stick and it propels you forward from your feet using the power of the ground. In Tai Chi we're essentially trying to do this 'force down then up' inside our own legs when we use Jin in a technique like, say, push." Are you talking about fajin? It is possible that it would feel like that for some people I guess. What bothers me is that I had some of those experiences when I trained, but I also had a different set of experiences that no one seemed to be talking about or to have understood, in-line with what I read in the classics and in most of the books written by "et al." in the 20s and 30s during the Tai Chi boom. So I am somewhat suspicious when someone comes in and tries to explain things differently to what I have read and felt for myself. A lot of times I would read an interview in Tai Chi magazine and say to myself, 'ahh, that turn of phrase -- that's it, she and I are on the same page.' I don't get that with any of the "modern" slash "internet" group's discussions. It just seems like they are approaching the art from a totally different standpoint, and that concerns me. I'm concerned that what is being presented really isn't Tai Chi -- and by people who know better, but otherwise are not looking a gift horse (neijia) in the mouth in their search for "Tai Chi". Do you think I am being needlessly cautious? :)

Anyways I still might not quite understand what you meant exactly, could you please post or link a video that shows what you mean? As a hiker myself who walks up guanzhiling here in Taiwan every now and then I am somewhat familiar with walking sticks but not with the method you have described.
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby marvin8 on Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:15 pm

Appledog wrote:Anyways I still might not quite understand what you meant exactly, could you post a video and show what you mean? As a hiker myself who walks up guanzhiling here in Taiwan every now and then I am somewhat familiar with walking sticks but not with the method you have described.

Me, too. I am not quite understanding how sinking on the walking stick, then pushing down on the stick with one's upper body to propel one forward (if that's what you meant) helps one get the feel of tai chi push quicker:
GrahamB wrote:You push your weight down into the ground through the stick and it propels you forward from your feet using the power of the ground.

In Tai Chi we're essentially trying to do this 'force down then up' inside our own legs when we use Jin in a technique like, say, push. It's very hard to know what that's meant to feel like unless you have somebody to show you, and even then you need the gumption to perceive how it's done and how it's different to a usual shoulder push. Experimenting with a walking stick while you walk may help you get the feel quicker.

If you discussed the biomechanics, etc., it might be more clear.

A video on Noridc walking, not sure if it relates.

Sikana English on Jul 6, 2017

In this video, you will learn the basic Nordic Walking action, a technique using both your arms and your legs:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAmsHhc2zCw
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby Trick on Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:03 pm

yes that "nordic walking"(stav gång) when it came around some decades ago i couldn get my mind on its specific usefullness, and i still cant get it. i done some cross-country skiing when younger, in that activity i fully undetstand the use of the sticks. actually in the very old times of cross country skiing just a single stick/staff was used.......Back to walking stick, it gan be a good weapon if know how to handle it as such... my father had a walking stick with a hidden sharply pointy blade(not really a blade) that could be pulled out. my taiji teacher in dalian have one such......Otherwise i think i can understand what Grahame try to tell, 8-)
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:54 pm

No Appledog, I'm talking about really basic Tai Chi - the way it's supposed to work.

"The jin should be
rooted in the feet,
generated from the legs,
controlled by the waist, and
manifested through the fingers."

This is way before you get to things like fajin.

Unfortunately it feels like I'm talking French and everybody else here talks German...

Examples:

MS on Jin from the ground, not frame: https://vimeo.com/273955189

MS on Jin operations: https://vimeo.com/156309921
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby middleway on Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:21 am

It finally happened ... Graham slipped into old age.

No Appledog, I'm talking about really bad Tai Chi - the way it Doesn't work.


There you go i fixed it for you.

Unfortunately it feels like I'm talking French and everybody else here talks German...


Further proof arrives in the form of you posting MS videos where his front foot goes light all the time as he 'braces' against any type of force. Its the same with the video of him holding the weight of a heavy bag at bay below ... his front foot literally comes off the floor! It really is a 'different' language you are right...

https://vimeo.com/233877721

Note the verse doesn't say

"The jin should be
rooted in the Foot,
generated from the leg, "

So much to learn ... so little time.
Last edited by middleway on Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby GrahamB on Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:40 am

Middleway, you completely misunderstand again.

I'm going to quote this before you delete it because I don't think you realise how foolish it makes you sound:

middleway wrote:
Further proof arrives in the form of you posting MS videos where his front foot goes light all the time as he 'braces' against any type of force. Its the same with the video of him holding the weight of a heavy bag at bay below ... his front foot literally comes off the floor! It really is a 'different' language you are right...

https://vimeo.com/233877721

Note the verse doesn't say

"The jin should be
rooted in the Foot,
generated from the leg, "

So much to learn ... so little time.


To use a MS phrase - I think you just outed yourself.
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby middleway on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:49 am

I'm going to quote this before you delete it


Oh i stand by it old fella & wont be deleting it.

I don't think you realise how foolish it makes you sound


Reaaaaaally? haha.

"Experimenting with a walking stick while you walk may help you get the feel quicker."

Wisdom of the highest order right there ... I will 'stick' to more practical endeavors if that's ok with you.

To use a MS phrase - I think you just outed yourself.


More MS 'wisdom'. lol.

In fact i think i just pointed out something to you that you clearly hadn't seen .. or maybe you did see it and think it was fine? Brace away chap, brace away!! Those that know, know.

"The jin should be
rooted in the Foot,
generated from the leg, "


:-X
Last edited by middleway on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Walking stick jin

Postby Bao on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:55 am

Dunno really... I don't always completely agree with Mike's methods so I am maybe not the right person to judge according to his own way of speaking of this stuff. But if you use a walking stick, you use an isolated part of the body (the limb from the shoulder) it to take off the load from the body which seems like quite the opposite to find connection through the body.

As Mike shows, when you absorb strength down to the ground with the hands/arms, there is a feeling that you use a direct connection from hand to feet. He uses the body mostly passively as a stationary, unmovable frame. If you use a walking stick, then you separate the frame from the ground, but what he shows is how to let the incoming pressure fall naturally into the frame. The frame takes the pressure from the gravity straight down. So, using Mike's terminology, the use of stick might use the jin path to take the gravity instead of the frame?

Also, generating jin is different from being able to handle pressure from the outside. I don't think they should be confused together. But that's maybe another topic...
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