Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby Appledog on Sat May 04, 2019 2:49 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:If you have a source that gives you what you want then that's great.But it doesn't mean that these guys in the clips are wrong.

johnwang wrote:You are still too young. When you are interested in kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game integration, any pure style has little meaning to you. The reason is simple. You task is to make any MA style "not pure".

Well said.


Sure, people can do whatever they want if it works for them. But that doesn't mean it is tai chi. Tai Chi is not the name for 'high level CMA'. It is the name for a high level CMA :)
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby Trick on Sat May 04, 2019 3:04 am

Bao wrote:
Most Taiji guy don't want to admit that:

long fist -> Chen Taiji -> Yang taiji


I would not. Most of what is called IMA is found in older Shaolin tradition (not longfist). The development to modern Tai Chi is just no as linear as you make it.
how modern or old is "modern taijiquan"? what exactly is modern taijiquan ?
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby Bao on Sat May 04, 2019 3:12 am

Trick wrote: how modern or old is "modern taijiquan"? what exactly is modern taijiquan ?


Modern Tai Chi starts when it became a question of styles. Before that there was no fixed curriculum, no system of specific forms or exercises that made up what you were supposed to practice. So it starts when Chen Fake had started to teach in Beijing and said: "what I teach is the original Tai Chi".
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby charles on Sat May 04, 2019 5:08 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote: how modern or old is "modern taijiquan"? what exactly is modern taijiquan ?


Modern Tai Chi starts when it became a question of styles. Before that there was no fixed curriculum, no system of specific forms or exercises that made up what you were supposed to practice. So it starts when Chen Fake had started to teach in Beijing and said: "what I teach is the original Tai Chi".


I'm not a historian and I wasn't there, but I don't think CFK (1887 -1957) ever stated that he teaches "original Tai Chi". He was known to say that he taught the martial art of his family. His family's martial art did have a fixed curriculum, with specific forms and exercises that appear to date back to Chen Wangting (1580-1660), credited as the founder of the family's style. There appears to be evidence that the empty-hand forms were re-organized/re-formulated by Chen Chanxing (1771-1853) into two forms, variations of which are still taught and practiced today. Along the way, other forms were added, including some weapons forms, and some additional adjunct practices. Some of these changes and additions occurred as recently as the 1900's. The family's art continues to change, both in terms of additions and alterations: it is a living art, changing with the times.

There appears to be evidence of similar curricula in the other Taijiquan family styles prior to CFK teaching in Beijing.

One can define "modern Taijiquan" however one chooses, but I don't think it is accurate to state that prior to the early 1900's, family styles had no fixed curriculum or system of forms and exercises.

As far as "purity" of style goes, as long as it is a "living" art form, "purity" is a moving target since the art continues to change/evolve with the times. MTGA - Make Taijiquan Great Again: the sentimental longing to return to a time before now when the art was better than it is now.
Last edited by charles on Sat May 04, 2019 5:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby Trick on Sat May 04, 2019 6:22 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote: how modern or old is "modern taijiquan"? what exactly is modern taijiquan ?


Modern Tai Chi starts when it became a question of styles. Before that there was no fixed curriculum, no system of specific forms or exercises that made up what you were supposed to practice. So it starts when Chen Fake had started to teach in Beijing and said: "what I teach is the original Tai Chi".

yes maybe he made such a claim, but from the little i have read about him he seemed to be quite humble. it could maybe be so that the already in beijing established taiji teachers gathered up agaonst him to "protect" their positions and from there the "modern" taijiquan sprung...anyway the forms(with its aplications) may vary some along the way, and that is what is seen as modern, but isnt there a core that must be practiced, understood and mastered that always been there from the beginning of the chen-family style and probably beyond, later transmitted to other families where ylc was the first. maybe the modern taiji started with him.
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby Bao on Sat May 04, 2019 7:30 am

Trick wrote:yes maybe he made such a claim, but from the little i have read about him he seemed to be quite humble. it could maybe be so that the already in beijing established taiji teachers gathered up agaonst him to "protect" their positions and from there the "modern" taijiquan sprung...


It might have been Wu Tunan who triggered him by telling him that what he did was not internal.
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby johnwang on Sat May 04, 2019 2:26 pm

Bao wrote:what he did was not internal.

If he

- can use his CMA to fight, whether it's "internal" or not is not important.
- can't use his CMA to fight, even it's "internal", it has no value.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby Steve James on Sat May 04, 2019 2:51 pm

Fwiw, I only heard that Wu said what Chen Fa Ke did was not "taijiquan," not that it wasn't internal. And, from I what I've read, Chen didn't care about what people called what he did. It was his family art.

Anyway, the Chang San Feng origin legend is still fascinating because I don't think I've heard an explanation of how the art was passed from him to anyone. In any case, it's hard to imagine that what people do today is the same as what was done originally by anyone.
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby Bao on Sun May 05, 2019 2:09 am

If he
- can use his CMA to fight, whether it's "internal" or not is not important.
- can't use his CMA to fight, even it's "internal", it has no value.


If using internal principles means that you can fight better it matters for your CMA.
If you can use internal principles to achieve better health it has value for your life.
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby johnwang on Sun May 05, 2019 10:54 am

Bao wrote:If you can use internal principles to achieve better health it has value for your life.

I don't need "internal" to prevent me from getting hunchback. I need strong back muscle to hold my back straight. I hold a stick with both hands and move it between in front of my legs and behind my legs 120 times daily. Is that "internal"? I don't care.

As long as I have

- good structure,
- strong bone,
- good balance,
- body flexibility,
- strong heart,
- ...

I should have good health. "Internal" is not the only path that can help me to get there.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby Bao on Sun May 05, 2019 11:20 am

"Internal" is not the only path that can help me to get there.


Who said it was? :/
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby Trick on Sun May 05, 2019 8:29 pm

is it a walking stick ? 8-×
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby dragonprawn on Mon May 06, 2019 11:54 am

John,

Isn't the guy in that stick video double-jointed?
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby johnwang on Mon May 06, 2019 12:34 pm

dragonprawn wrote:John,

Isn't the guy in that stick video double-jointed?

I think everybody can do this if they can loose their shoulder joint. When I stand straight and do this drill, I only move my stick from the top of my head to behind my back. I skip the front part. The front part is easy and doesn't work on the back muscle anyway.

Thos following drill works pretty good too.

Most RSF members may be too young to worry about the hunchback problem. From what I can see from my mother in law and my sister, I want to prevent that from happening on me.

Image
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Good Push Hands: Spoiler Alert...it's not about pushing

Postby Subitai on Fri May 10, 2019 10:11 am

Appledog wrote:


This isn't tai chi; it's a mix of wing chun and tai chi and general CMA (probably something like hung gar but I am not sure exactly -- there are certain schools in Taiwan that teach similar combinations). I'm not putting him down, i'm just telling you what he does -- he teaches Chi Sao and Wing Chun side by side with Tai Chi/Push Hands in his classes here in Taiwan, and has developed quite a reputation in the wider community for insisting that tai chi students should learn to push hands before they finish learning the form (ex. http://abbie.freeshell.org/?Martial_Art ... e_articles)

Zeng was a police taekwondo instructor before learning wing chun with yip man. When he got out of the military or retired he learned Tai Chi from one of CMC's students. Anyways that doesn't tell you much about his Tai chi skills. But in the videos there is no push hands instruction going on... Where is the peng, lu? I don't see it.



Wow...Appledog...I'm normally a fan of your posts here :)

As soon as I saw your 1st sentence:
Appledog wrote: This isn't tai chi; it's a mix of wing chun and tai chi and general CMA (probably something like hung gar but I am not sure exactly -- there are certain schools in Taiwan that teach similar combinations)


I said to myself hey wait a minute...I resemble that remark! haha...that's why they call me "Tai Gar". hahaha.

Anyway, i'm also curious about your comment:
Where is the peng, lu? I don't see it.


1st Peng can be in your structure...don't you agree? I just spent all last week in San jose area...(touching / Pushing hands )with as many strangers as possible. Sometimes they'd say...."wow you're strong" and then assume I was being stiff or using strength to use it against me...boy were they wrong. Hence...Peng is present and not just as ward off.

2nd Lu, in the second video listed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jibhL8dz6OI
If you look at the buddha belly of that teacher ;D ...when the guy on the left pushes at him and the teacher then rolls his belly, yields and allows the push to extend out. It doesn't have to be pretty but...Is that not "LU"???
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