Taiji finish move development

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Taiji finish move development

Postby johnwang on Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:25 pm

I just came back from Houston for the 2019 Houston (2019 World Star Chinese Martial Arts Competition) 3 hours ago. In that tournament, I have met many Taiji teachers there. During the general CMA discussion, I asked my favor question, "Which Taiji technique will you use if you have to kill?" I didn't get a solid answer for my question. I then asked, "Yang Taiji all have separate leg, cross leg, turn around hammer, advance hammer, .... All can be used to kill if one intends to develop it." For some unknown reason, none of those Taiji teachers were interested in those "Taiji finish move development".

Your thought?
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8971
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby Trick on Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:50 pm

johnwang wrote:I just came back from Houston for the 2019 Houston (2019 World Star Chinese Martial Arts Competition) 3 hours ago. In that tournament, I have met many Taiji teachers there. During the general CMA discussion, I asked my favor question, "Which Taiji technique will you use if you have to kill?" I didn't get a solid answer for my question. I then asked, "Yang Taiji all have separate leg, cross leg, turn around hammer, advance hammer, .... All can be used to kill if one intends to develop it." For some unknown reason, none of those Taiji teachers were interested in those "Taiji finish move development".

Your thought?

il bet there where many different chinese martial arts present at that competition and many got killed but not by any taijiquan practitioner, so you asked a fair question 8-)
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2308
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby Bao on Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:56 pm

Does "finishing move" always have to equal "method to kill"? :P

If you fight someone for real, would your goal be to kill that person? :-\
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6983
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby GrahamB on Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:00 am

The best "finishing move" is Collar Choke. The quickest, easiest way to finish somebody. You choose to kill them or just make them go to sleep for a bit. Hardly any strength needed. No need to change the form:

Image

Live training scenario:

Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11817
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby edededed on Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:25 am

I think that there must be taiji finishing moves! Maybe taiji people just don't want to talk about them ("first rule of fight club is...").

One is apparently called "thousand-hand Guanyin" - but no idea what it is actually. Anyone here know? :D
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3900
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:52 am

edededed wrote:I think that there must be taiji finishing moves! Maybe taiji people just don't want to talk about them ("first rule of fight club is...").


Exactly. There are a whole lot of nasty techniques aimed at vulnerable points. Better to keep that shit to trustworthy students only. :P

Personally I don't believe that it's good to nurture a mind-set were your primary goal is to hurt people as much as possible or even kill. Better to grow up from that kind of thinking.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6983
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:15 am

Hands up all those with a string of dead bodies in their past
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3536
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby Appledog on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:17 am

johnwang wrote:I just came back from Houston for the 2019 Houston (2019 World Star Chinese Martial Arts Competition) 3 hours ago. In that tournament, I have met many Taiji teachers there. During the general CMA discussion, I asked my favor question, "Which Taiji technique will you use if you have to kill?" I didn't get a solid answer for my question. I then asked, "Yang Taiji all have separate leg, cross leg, turn around hammer, advance hammer, .... All can be used to kill if one intends to develop it." For some unknown reason, none of those Taiji teachers were interested in those "Taiji finish move development".

Your thought?


Most CMA ends up working based on your intention so if your intention is to kill, you kill.

There are a few problems with this though. First, your not going to find a teacher who is going to teach you a technique specifically to kill people unless you are under the sort of teacher who wants to use you to kill someone. Usually you will be steered away by hook or by crook from the intention of killing someone. I.E. you are not taught those techniques and if you persist you are kicked out of the school. There are exceptions but generally it looks bad for the teacher when the student ends up killing someone.

In general I think this is a pedantic question because the answer should be obvious.

So basically how this goes is that people who try to use an art like Taiji to kill people are doing something they were not taught how to do, i.e. they made it up. Most of the people making things up in Taiji don't know what they are doing. Just my 2 pence.
Appledog
Huajing
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:32 am

Imo, the human body is the human body, and tcc is just another Chinese martial art. There aren't different ways of harming human beings when it comes down to it. That's also why techniques for healing are fairly similar.

Graham mentioned "collar choke," and I'd have to agree that it's tried and true. Now, whether YCF's "Cross Hands" represents the "taichi" choking technique ... I dunno. However, I totally agree that "choking" has to be in the list of tcc techniques simply because it's a cma. Choking would come under qinna, and some would argue that most of the lethal techniques in cma are in qinna. Here's the basic list of what it comprises.

Qinna can generally be categorized (in Chinese) as:

"Fen jin" or "zhua jin" (dividing the muscle/tendon, grabbing the muscle/tendon). Fen means "to divide", zhua is "to grab" and jin means "tendon, muscle, sinew". They refer to techniques which tear apart an opponent's muscles or tendons.

"Cuo gu" (misplacing the bone). Cuo means "wrong, disorder" and gu means "bone". Cuo gu therefore refer to techniques which put bones in wrong positions and is usually applied specifically to joints.

"Bi qi" (sealing the breath). Bi means "to close, seal or shut" and qi, or more specifically kong qi, meaning "air". "Bi qi" is the technique of preventing the opponent from inhaling. This differs from mere strangulation in that it may be applied not only to the windpipe directly but also to muscles surrounding the lungs, supposedly to shock the system into a contraction which impairs breathing.

"Dian mai" or "dian xue" (sealing the vein/artery or acupressure cavity). Similar to the Cantonese dim mak, these are the technique of sealing or striking blood vessels and chi points.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 18094
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:40 am

@jw,

There are a couple of reasons why those teachers may not have been able to answer your question directly.

One of them may be that taiji has no endpoint in it's movement. Like throwing the idea to blend with the opponent allowing the opponent's own momentum or lack of to do the finishing movement.

IME, the better way of answering such a question is by showing, doing, allowing the other to feel the answer, any intent or movement offered by the other becomes the finishing movement.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7401
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:43 am

Nobody showed you the five point finger strike exploding heart death technique? You must have worn an offensive aftershave, only sensible explanation.
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby charles on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:44 am

Appledog wrote: Usually you will be steered away by hook or by crook from the intention of killing someone. I.E. you are not taught those techniques and if you persist you are kicked out of the school. There are exceptions but generally it looks bad for the teacher when the student ends up killing someone.


Just an anecdotal story that speaks to John's question ....

There is an action in several of Feng Ziqiang's forms. One of the possible applications of the action is a screwing back-fist to strike the opponent's temple with the extended knuckles of the fist. My teacher told me of two examples of its use. One example involved a student of his to whom he taught that application. The student went on to fight in Russia in ring fights. The student used that on an opponent in the ring. The opponent died as a result of the strike. The student was charged with murder, found guilty and was executed.

In the other story, my teacher was challenged. He knocked the challenger out with the same single strike to the temple.


I once asked my teacher, who had some reputation as a street fighter in China, about competing in MMA fights. He said the only way he would win is if he maimed the opponent, techniques that aren't allowed, for obvious reasons.

No, I haven't killed or maimed anyone. :o I had my wrist broken once, but I don't think that counts.

I agree with Steve that Taijiquan is just another martial art with no unique killing moves.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1582
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:51 am

oragami_itto wrote:Nobody showed you the five point finger strike exploding heart death technique? You must have worn an offensive aftershave, only sensible explanation.


All the things listed in Steve's post my last teacher could do. Sealing the breath, sealing the vein is something that is quite real.

Interesting you should mention about the heart. My teacher once remarked to another student that he could stop his heart. The student then asked " how could this be done."

My teacher said "why do you want to know"

As with most things understanding comes from the practice itself once a certain level of practice is reached.

It said in taiji, in every movement one should see red
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7401
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:55 am

"I once asked my teacher, who had some reputation as a street fighter in China, about competing in MMA fights. He said the only way he would win is if he maimed the opponent, techniques that aren't allowed, for obvious reasons. "

A bad assumption that many make.
Street fighters rarely have to deal with people equal to or greater than their own skill.

Kind of the point no?

To have or develop a skill that the other person does not have or cannot deal with.

On the other hand those who test their skills in a ring have to have skills that work against those of equal or greater skill.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7401
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Taiji finish move development

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:04 am

There is a specific chapter in the Yang "salt tablet" manual that nothing lethal should be taught to people of poor character (like criminals). So, unless a teacher knows you, well, he isn't advised to teach you anything that could harm someone.

However, for example, knowing that sealing the breath can kill is not the same as knowing how to seal the breath. Note the number of different choke holds in arts that specialize in them, or ways to break bones in other arts. Needless to say, damaging someone using percussion (striking) is fairly obvious. What the teacher can do is show the most effective ways and the critical targets.

Besides, tcc also has weapons, and it's the same principle. Fighting someone with a blade is not like doing a form. And, no, don't expect that many people are talking about having killed with their cma on discussion boards or anywhere else. Neither with jians, daos, spears, or empty hand. But, I could be wrong about that.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 18094
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest