Hunchback

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Hunchback

Postby Appledog on Tue May 07, 2019 8:23 am

Bao wrote:Now you confuse the subjects. Leaning is not the same as hollowing the chest or "hunching". Leaning can be done with a perfectly straight back. "Hunchback" has absolutely nothing to do with leaning or not.


You're correct that I didn't expect this to turn out to be a discussion of a degenerative bone medical condition. I'm not a doctor. Other than that, what I said is correct -- and if you read what Steve wrote you will see I was just responding to his comment about lean in Taiji. I didn't bring it up.

BTW; the progressive taiji book I'm writing has an entire section on wolff's law which I have been looking at for about 20 years. It's a well-known law in osteoporosis physical therapy. Again while I am not a doctor much of what I said was informed by an armchair knowledge of associated techniques. A good article off the top of my head which you can read on the subject is at https://strengthondemand.blogspot.com/2 ... s-law.html . You can also read up on Davis's law.

Again I feel sorry for people who were thrown in prison and starved, but if this didn't happen to you it would have to be a medical miracle or extremely bad genetics to turn out like this after doing taiji several hours a day.

Yes that's right, funny how it turns out so many taiji 'masters' end up with back problems, knee problems, so on and so on, fatty liver, diabetes, overweight, other disease, lung problems, breathing or blood problems, etc. So many health problems! Maybe it is not taiji which is the deciding factor in these cases. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes people just get lazy. This can be difficult to accept because we know the sacrifice so many of our ancestors made while in prison, starving or worse. But it happens. We are all human. Maybe we should be more accepting and not so judgemental about these people.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby johnwang on Tue May 07, 2019 9:22 am

Bao wrote:Leaning can be done with a perfectly straight back.

Agree! To make a straight line from the head to the back foot is the basic requirement.

Image

Image

Without leaning, many throws won't work.

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Re: Hunchback

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Wed May 08, 2019 4:55 am

Steve James wrote:Where I disagree with you is that I don't believe that doing tcc "correctly" will prevent or cure the condition. Everyone is so clear about what "correct" tcc is. But, I really don't many people with this condition. Even today when more people than ever spend their time hunched over their computers or their cellphones, the typical result is neck or back pain, not true kyphosis.

Maybe Dr. Ken could comment. I agree with John that certain types of lifts will help, but we're talking about the elderly. Flexibility exercises, imo, will probably do more to ease pain. Weight-lifters flexibility exercises are also good. Jmo. Tcc, as a form of relaxation, may help in that regard. I don't think John Wang has to worry, though.


While the severity of the condition shown in the picture is extreme, this condition in minor form is fairly common. I had mild kyphosis of the thoracic spine after college, my brother had it after college and desk work, you can see it all the time. The best indicator is forward shoulders and forward head position which is caused by a slight rounding of the upper back. The chest muscles are in a permanently contracted position while the upper back muscles are in a permanent stretched position, which weakens their contractile strength. The chest should be stretched and the back should be strengthened, specifically the traps, rhomboids, and rear delts. There are a ton of good exercises to fix it. Turkish get ups fixed it for me with the bones popping back into correct position all at once in the middle of a rep. My neck was so sore I couldn't turn my head for 3 days so I wouldn't recommend fixing it all at once like that.

I think proper tai chi would help but it would take a lot of focus on posture and specific movements. I don't think it would work any better than modern weightlifting exercises and would take longer.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby Steve James on Wed May 08, 2019 6:04 am

Well, imo, it's bad posture that is quite common, not kyphosis. All humans are imperfect, so it's possible to say that all conditions are merely a matter of degree. That's why I suggest seeing a doctor, and won't suggest a "tai chi" solution.

But, I commented because of the suggestion that Yang stylists have more problems than people who practice Chen style. My point was that Yang stylists --in particular-- have been criticized for being too upright.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby Trick on Wed May 08, 2019 6:59 am

maybe the "hunch" comes around among some as a way to compensate for being "too uprigh" ?
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Re: Hunchback

Postby Bao on Wed May 08, 2019 8:39 am

DeusTrismegistus wrote:While the severity of the condition shown in the picture is extreme, this condition in minor form is fairly common. I had mild kyphosis of the thoracic spine after college, my brother had it after college and desk work, you can see it all the time. The best indicator is forward shoulders and forward head position which is caused by a slight rounding of the upper back. The chest muscles are in a permanently contracted position while the upper back muscles are in a permanent stretched position, which weakens their contractile strength.


This is interesting. I have always wondered why many people already in their early 20s have a stiff, rigid upper back. It seems like they don't move this area at all. Kyphosis is described as a deformation. I believe that it's very true that it starts early. Stiffness, in both lower and upper body, starts already in the teens. Even if they do sports, they can still have this problem.

The problem fro all of us is that if you don't keep the movement going in all of the back, the fascia will become hard, immovable and turn into a shell that contracts the muscles together that can have a negative impact on the spine. So it's extremely important to keep the movability in the deep muscles close to the bones and close to the spine. Normal daily movement doesn't do this for us. And not even all Tai Chi and IMA practice, if you are not aware about this problem. So you can still have your back turned into a shell.

(I've written more about Tai Chi and Fascia here: https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... chi-chuan/ )

.....

Here in the vid below, (the whole vid, but especially from the beginning up to 1.30 ) you can see great exercises for, and a pretty good show-off, in shoulder blade / scapula flexibility. This is about how flexible one should try to become:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N_vs_K_Y68

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N_vs_K_Y68


Edit:
... Oh, and BTW, I recorded some exercises a few years a go. If someone here is interested, I can give you the URL and password.... I won't make it public to avoid conflicts with some people, but I can share it if I know who will watch it... So just give me a PM if you are interested.

.....
Last edited by Bao on Wed May 08, 2019 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby windwalker on Wed May 08, 2019 9:25 am

Why do so many look for a martial art as a way to cure a chronic condition or improve one's health.

in most cases the training for anything that is martial is designed to weed out those who cannot do the training or not develop the skill sets.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby johnwang on Wed May 08, 2019 10:28 am

windwalker wrote:Why do so many look for a martial art as a way to cure a chronic condition or improve one's health.

Just trying to see how Taiji is good for old, sick, and weak.

Bao wrote:Normal daily movement doesn't do this for us. And not even all Tai Chi and IMA practice,...

If you train the following ZZ, you will have less hunchback problem.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Hunchback

Postby windwalker on Wed May 08, 2019 10:53 am

johnwang wrote:Just trying to see how Taiji is good for old, sick, and weak.


If you train the following ZZ, you will have less hunchback problem.

Image

Image

Image


With out understanding the underling causes of the img shown by the OP, any type of protocol
it's a hit or miss, in some cases it can even cause more damage or exacerbate the problem.
Taiji, due to marketing has shifted its focus to being a good health exercises
by many...

run into this all the time, for those looking for health, I always refer them to other teachers.
I do see many teachers also promoting this "health"...Good for them, hopefully those they teach benefit
from it.

My own approach is to take what is there, help others to understand how to make it more functional in accordance with what is called
taiji within a martial context.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 08, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby johnwang on Wed May 08, 2019 11:02 am

windwalker wrote:My own approach is to take what is there, help others to understand how to make it more functional in accordance with what is called
taiji within a martial context.

I don't look at it as:

- This is Taiji. This is what we do with it.

I look at it as:

- This is the problem. Where can I find solution for it?
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Re: Hunchback

Postby windwalker on Wed May 08, 2019 11:17 am

johnwang wrote:
windwalker wrote:My own approach is to take what is there, help others to understand how to make it more functional in accordance with what is called
taiji within a martial context.

I don't look at it as:

- This is Taiji. This is what we do with it.

I look at it as:

- This is the problem. Where can I find solution for it?


I am very careful to ask those who I work with whether they have any health issues.
If they do, and are not sure always ask them to check with their doctor or health provider.

The problem sometimes is that their doctors have a missinfromed view of taiji due to those promoting it for health.

We all get old...keeping active is key no matter what the activity.
Best of luck with finding your solution, and helping others to find theirs.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby Trick on Wed May 08, 2019 5:18 pm

windwalker wrote:Why do so many look for a martial art as a way to cure a chronic condition or improve one's health.
.

isnt this a common story of many great masters, that as kids they where weak and in poor health so they where suggested to take up martial arts. as we know many of the CMA's are not just designed for combat application but have an physical educational aspect to them too. of course if you are 35 or something years old and dragging with a chronic condition taking up CMA might not lead you to great mastery of the art but maybe a better mastery of ones body
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Re: Hunchback

Postby windwalker on Wed May 08, 2019 5:34 pm

Trick wrote:
windwalker wrote:Why do so many look for a martial art as a way to cure a chronic condition or improve one's health.
.

isnt this a common story of many great masters, that as kids they where weak and in poor health so they where suggested to take up martial arts. as we know many of the CMA's are not just designed for combat application but have an physical educational aspect to them too. of course if you are 35 or something years old and dragging with a chronic condition taking up CMA might not lead you to great mastery of the art but maybe a better mastery of ones body



what if they had taken up swimming or track, would you then suggest that swimming or track has some special advantage?

Martial arts are really only for one thing,
although they can be used for others if the focus is changed.
The teachers I've worked with over the yrs, only taught with usage in mind.
Every thing else was secondary. If one reads taiji history much of training was quite severe.



Is BJJ also good for health, did it have the same stories of how it developed and why?

lets see

Helio’s small size and relatively weak physical condition made it difficult to execute some of the positions properly.

In order to progress and earn the attention and admiration of his older brothers, especially Carlos, Helio had to research alternate Jiu-Jitsu methods, which worked for him. His discoveries emphasized leverage and timing over strength and speed.

The adaptations of techniques Helio learned from his brothers were mastered through trial and error with the end result being the further development and refinement Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
.

sound familiar.

What you mentioned might be better termed as drive...what drives one to master level...
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 08, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby Trick on Wed May 08, 2019 11:53 pm

windwalker wrote:
what if they had taken up swimming or track, would you then suggest that swimming or track has some special advantage?




Is BJJ also good for health, did it have the same stories of how it developed and why?

lets see

Helio’s small size and relatively weak physical condition made it difficult to execute some of the positions properly.

In order to progress and earn the attention and admiration of his older brothers, especially Carlos, Helio had to research alternate Jiu-Jitsu methods, which worked for him. His discoveries emphasized leverage and timing over strength and speed.

The adaptations of techniques Helio learned from his brothers were mastered through trial and error with the end result being the further development and refinement Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
.
.
a taiji teacher in taiwan told me swimming is a good additional exercise to ones taiji practice, i agree swimming is a very good exercise.But swimming is a relatively new common exercise among chinese not long time ago few dared to jump into the pool, including gung fu masters...so lucky there was the martial arts around as an exercise to make them stronger
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Re: Hunchback

Postby Trick on Wed May 08, 2019 11:56 pm

oh, anout that helio and gjj, it sound he followed the spirit of judo. didnt kano wish his judo was to be something anyone could enjoy practise ?
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