Hunchback

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Hunchback

Postby everything on Thu May 09, 2019 11:33 am

the usual studies seem to be about tai chi vs walking, e.g. in this one, tai chi (despite not being "aerobic exercise") was more effective than brisk walking in cardiovascular health indicators (like BP).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30195124

since the #1 accident risk in the elderly is falling, getting better balance by deliberate practice is no doubt super important and probably better achieved via taiji than via walking. of course, musculoskeletal health and the relationship to cardiovascular health is really only one kind of health and those of us doing too much sport as weekend warriors are also getting various injuries that probably aren't so common in the senior center or wellness center taiji or yoga programs.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby Steve James on Thu May 09, 2019 12:46 pm

since the #1 accident risk in the elderly is falling, getting better balance by deliberate practice is no doubt super important and probably better achieved via taiji than via walking. of course, musculoskeletal health and the relationship to cardiovascular health is really only one kind of health and those of us doing too much sport as weekend warriors are also getting various injuries that probably aren't so common in the senior center or wellness center taiji or yoga programs.


As a senior citizen, I would say that the idea of doing tcc would be to enable one to walk. Walking requires a different balance skill than doing tcc --er, than doing the tcc form. Put it this way, it takes balance just to stand, and on one foot it's harder than on two. Dynamic (moving) balance adds another level of difficulty. People doing tcc are usually doing it on familiar ground, often in a protected environment with a flat surface. I.e., it's rarely necessary to look down or around.

Older people fall, not simply because they've lost their balance. Usually, it's because something has upset their balance and they can't recover. They are well aware of that possibility, so that often leads to fear. For ex., walking down two flights of steel subway stairs while people rush past. Or, just walking along and tripping because of a distraction. Younger people can often regain their balance without thinking. And, they don't worry so much about falling.

Elderly peoples' bones are more fragile, and they won't recover from an injury as quickly. As noted, they often die in their homes as a result of falls. Sometimes it's not the fall. It's all the changes that result. For example, an old person can break her hip and not be able to move for months.

Here's the thing. If someone my age came and asked how to gain better balance, I wouldn't say do bjj. If he were recovering from a stroke and couldn't use his right arm, I wouldn't suggest judo. Otoh, there's not a condition, injury, or state of being a person could be in that I couldn't recommend doing tcc. That's what the stories are about. Tcc was recommended to them precisely because it was something they could do. Later on, some regained their health and got good at it. But, frankly, the story of the sickly person who takes up a martial art is nothing new.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby everything on Thu May 09, 2019 1:09 pm

theoretically, people should learn to breakfall and maintain that skill for the rest of their lives.

practically, it's pretty easy to learn when you're young. not sure it's so easy to learn or maintain later.

tai chi is indeed good. it's probably terribly boring for most people, though. heck, it's probably too boring for a lot of us who actually like ima.

maybe zumba is just as good or better.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby Steve James on Thu May 09, 2019 1:13 pm

You didn't get it. Some older people do tcc so that they can do zumba :). But, I personally prefer salsa.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby everything on Thu May 09, 2019 2:26 pm

oh lol
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Re: Hunchback

Postby Trick on Thu May 09, 2019 7:50 pm

if talking dance the limbo should do it(as hunch preventing) JW has it (almost)going,
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Re: Hunchback

Postby RobP3 on Fri May 10, 2019 1:47 am

everything wrote:theoretically, people should learn to breakfall and maintain that skill for the rest of their lives.

practically, it's pretty easy to learn when you're young. not sure it's so easy to learn or maintain later.

tai chi is indeed good. it's probably terribly boring for most people, though. heck, it's probably too boring for a lot of us who actually like ima.

maybe zumba is just as good or better.


Better to learn falling than breakfalling (at least the "slap the floor" type)
Only problem I find with TCC for the elderly is the knee issue. People with bad knees struggle with the form
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Re: Hunchback

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Fri May 10, 2019 4:53 am

Steve James wrote:Well, imo, it's bad posture that is quite common, not kyphosis. All humans are imperfect, so it's possible to say that all conditions are merely a matter of degree. That's why I suggest seeing a doctor, and won't suggest a "tai chi" solution.

But, I commented because of the suggestion that Yang stylists have more problems than people who practice Chen style. My point was that Yang stylists --in particular-- have been criticized for being too upright.


Kyphosis has the medical meaning of convex curvature of the spine and is normal in the thoracic and sacral spine. Pathological kyphosis, which the OP shows, is commonly called hyperkyphosis. With the inverse being hyperlordosis. The thing is that this doesn't need to reach pathological states to have impacts on mobility, strength, and health.

Good tai chi teaches to to extend the spine, suspend from the crown. When you do this it should straighten the thoracic region unless it lacks mobility. I don't think good chen or yang style is different in this regard. The lean debate is separate and afaik the origin of the "upright" criticism of yang.

Someone who learns tai chi and mindfully practices this all day would be able to correct minor excess curvature in the upper back and forward head position. I don't think it would work as well as weight training or PT designed for the same but not everyone can do those exercises. A doctor should definitely be involved, and probably a chiropractor too if you have diagnosed hyperkyphosis.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby johnwang on Fri May 10, 2019 10:19 am

People in RSF like to talk about old, sick, and weak. It's very depressing. CMA training is trying to prevent some problems from happening such as the hunchback. CMA is not used to fix some problem after it has already happened.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby Steve James on Fri May 10, 2019 11:06 am

Isn't the purpose to make the weak stronger?
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Re: Hunchback

Postby johnwang on Fri May 10, 2019 11:12 am

Steve James wrote:Isn't the purpose to make the weak stronger?

It can also make the strong stronger. Why do we always have to use the term "weak" here? It's better to send out positive energy (such as young, strong, and healthy). It's sad to send out negative energy (such as old, sick, and weak).

I'm glad that I can still run 3 miles 3 times weekly. I intend to keep doing that for the rest of my life.

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Re: Hunchback

Postby Steve James on Fri May 10, 2019 11:31 am

It can also make the strong stronger. Why do we always have to use the term "weak" here? It's better to send out positive energy (such as young, strong, and healthy).


I often hope that I will die young, strong, and healthy. My problem is that the only people I know who've accomplished it have died by accident or suicide.

Imo, the origin of cma, and using weapons, has been to make the weak stronger. It's true that many strong people don't (and won't) feel they are strong enough. They never will. Otoh, there are people who simply want to improve. That's possible to do at any age, but not for everyone.

Anyway, three things nobody gets from cma: invincibility, invulnerability, immortality. If that's the goal, then prepare for depression and disappointment. Otoh, those with the strength can always use it to help the weak when they can.:)
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Re: Hunchback

Postby johnwang on Fri May 10, 2019 11:37 am

Steve James wrote:prepare for depression...

2 weeks ago I went to Houston for tournament, in one meeting, my friend talked about his 93 years old mother's death. I tried to change the subject many times and failed. Finally, I just have to stand up and leave. IMO, if I can stay away from negative energy, my life will be happier.
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Re: Hunchback

Postby LaoDan on Fri May 10, 2019 11:48 am

everything wrote:the usual studies seem to be about tai chi vs walking, e.g. in this one, tai chi (despite not being "aerobic exercise") was more effective than brisk walking in cardiovascular health indicators (like BP).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30195124

Just to be clear, the researchers stated that for the “brisk walking” level (5-6 km/h) that they had the study subjects maintain: “Tai Chi requires a similar energy expenditure as brisk walking...”
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Re: Hunchback

Postby Steve James on Fri May 10, 2019 12:01 pm

Well, I try to stay happy by enjoying myself today 'cause I'll never be any younger. I only do tcc to enjoy the rest of my life today.

Btw, I put in a few thousand miles on my bike every year. (I've ordered an e-bike, just because I'm getting lazy). After my back operation 10 years ago, I couldn't ride at all. I could barely walk ... to be honest, I couldn't keep up with elderly ladies pushing walkers. I had to relearn walking by doing simple "one, two" stepping practice at home. Fwiw, I was able to do some tcc, and that's what I did. I also did some dancing. (There's something about music that made it easier). So, when I was able to get back on my bike, I was happy. I've done it all my life, so far, and I plan to do so as long as I can.
Last edited by Steve James on Fri May 10, 2019 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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