Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

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Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby Yeung on Wed May 08, 2019 8:05 am

The concept of Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted) in the context of “The Taijiquan Theory of Wang Zongyue (王宗岳太极拳论 wáng zōngyuè tàijí quán lùn)”, a manual handwritten by Li Yishu 李亦畲 in 1881:

双重之病 (shuāng chóng zhī bìng) Illness of double weighted
欲避此病 (yù bì cǐ bìng) To avoid this illness
须知阴阳 (xū zhī yīn yáng) Just understand passive active
双重则滞 (shuāngchóng zé zhì) Stagnant when double weighted
偏沉则随 (piān chén zé suí) Following when inclined sinking
左重则左虚 (zuǒ zhòng zé zuǒ xū) Left lights when left weighted
右重则右杳 (yòu zhòng zé yòu yǎo) Right disappears when right weighted

There are many interpretation of the concept on the illness of double weighted, one version is by Hong Junsheng 洪钧生 (1907-1996) in pages 356 and 357 of his book entitled “Practical Methods of Chens Taijiquan”, published in 1989, where he suggested: double weighted person, hand leg stiffen, hand moves slow, leg turns stagnant, weight center slant, loss of technique. But his suggestions did not explain the details of following when inclined sinking, left lights when left weighted, and right disappears when right weighted. There are other suggestions of the causes of the illness of double weighted.

Shen Jiazhen 沈家桢 (1891-1972) in his Chens Taijiquan (1963) did not address the question of double weighted directly but focus on the method of getting rid of stiffness. And if there is no stiffness then the illness of double weighted does not exist. There are other explanations such as do not us brute force, and the use of active stretching and passive recoil, etc.

My view is that the activation of the elastic components of the body will not result in stiffness of any part of the body.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby johnwang on Wed May 08, 2019 10:55 am

Yeung wrote: do not us brute force,

People always like to talk about "brute force". What is it?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby wayne hansen on Wed May 08, 2019 12:10 pm

Simple it is dumb people moving in an unskilled manner with no refined technique
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby Bao on Wed May 08, 2019 12:15 pm

Yeung wrote:Shen Jiazhen 沈家桢 (1891-1972) in his Chens Taijiquan (1963) did not address the question of double weighted directly but focus on the method of getting rid of stiffness. And if there is no stiffness then the illness of double weighted does not exist. There are other explanations such as do not us brute force, and the use of active stretching and passive recoil, etc.
My view is that the activation of the elastic components of the body will not result in stiffness of any part of the body.


I think that inability to change is better. You can be loose and flexible, but still get stuck because of that your timing sucks or if you go against his force. The quote on double heavy is all about practical use against an opponent, not about solo and form practice.

johnwang wrote:People always like to talk about "brute force". What is it?


Was that meant as a trick question? ;D
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby marvin8 on Wed May 08, 2019 12:41 pm

johnwang wrote:
Yeung wrote: do not us brute force,

People always like to talk about "brute force". What is it?

Per Merriam-Webster dictionary:
Merriam-Webster wrote:brute-force: relying on or achieved through the application of force, effort, or power in usually large amounts instead of more efficient, carefully planned, or precisely directed methods.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby everything on Wed May 08, 2019 12:48 pm

I'm not usually the person who says something is too abstract, but this all sounds way too abstract. Even if we said change from yin to yang and so on, it's still too abstract, but slightly better. A top ballerina will have much better pliability and elasticity than any of us, but does that mean something.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby Yeung on Fri May 10, 2019 2:16 am

Zhuo Li 拙力:

“Shuō wén jiě zì” 《说文解字》(100 AD) Zhuo 拙 is not skillful

Chao Shuo Zhi 晁说之(1059-1129) said, “Móu zhuō lì bǎi fèi 谋拙力百费”(seeking unskillful technique or brute force is of no use).

The relationship between brute force and double weighted is that when muscle is stretched and shortened at the same time will be stiffened, and to avoid the ill of double weighted is to avoid the shortening of muscle. One observation is that a stretched muscle can recoil or return to the origin length very quickly if not instantly and a shortened muscle will take a bit longer time to relax and return to the original length. I think most practitioners of Taijiquan are familiar with the technique of lead in and let go (引進落空Yin jìn luò kōng). I am trying to get some measurements on the times taken for muscle return to original length from stretching and from shortening. In any case you can test the difference with one pushing concentrically and the other one pushing eccentrically, and see who can release their tensions quicker. For more advance practitioners, they can recoil and pull eccentrically, and even make use of the opponent’s force.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby marvin8 on Fri May 10, 2019 7:40 am

Yeung wrote:In any case you can test the difference with one pushing concentrically and the other one pushing eccentrically, and see who can release their tensions quicker. For more advance practitioners, they can recoil and pull eccentrically, and even make use of the opponent’s force.

How does one "push eccentrically?"

Scientific studies have shown tai chi pushing involves both concentric and eccentric contractions:

A Biomechanical Assessment of Fajin Mechanisms in Martial Arts
A Scientific Perspective of Neijin (Internal Strength)
Biomechanics Analysis Of "Brush Knee and Twist Steps" Movement in Tai Chi
Biomechanical measurement and analysis of Tai Chi push-hand
• etc.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby oragami_itto on Fri May 10, 2019 7:58 am

Yeung wrote:The concept of Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted) in the context of “The Taijiquan Theory of Wang Zongyue (王宗岳太极拳论 wáng zōngyuè tàijí quán lùn)”, a manual handwritten by Li Yishu 李亦畲 in 1881:

双重之病 (shuāng chóng zhī bìng) Illness of double weighted
欲避此病 (yù bì cǐ bìng) To avoid this illness
须知阴阳 (xū zhī yīn yáng) Just understand passive active
双重则滞 (shuāngchóng zé zhì) Stagnant when double weighted
偏沉则随 (piān chén zé suí) Following when inclined sinking
左重则左虚 (zuǒ zhòng zé zuǒ xū) Left lights when left weighted
右重则右杳 (yòu zhòng zé yòu yǎo) Right disappears when right weighted

There are many interpretation of the concept on the illness of double weighted, one version is by Hong Junsheng 洪钧生 (1907-1996) in pages 356 and 357 of his book entitled “Practical Methods of Chens Taijiquan”, published in 1989, where he suggested: double weighted person, hand leg stiffen, hand moves slow, leg turns stagnant, weight center slant, loss of technique. But his suggestions did not explain the details of following when inclined sinking, left lights when left weighted, and right disappears when right weighted. There are other suggestions of the causes of the illness of double weighted.

Shen Jiazhen 沈家桢 (1891-1972) in his Chens Taijiquan (1963) did not address the question of double weighted directly but focus on the method of getting rid of stiffness. And if there is no stiffness then the illness of double weighted does not exist. There are other explanations such as do not us brute force, and the use of active stretching and passive recoil, etc.

My view is that the activation of the elastic components of the body will not result in stiffness of any part of the body.


I agree as far as it matters, whether stiffness is the cause or the product of double weighting I'm not sure. I think it can be both, depending on context.

Basically, with external double weighting, it just comes down to whether or not we're stuck due to insufficient separation of Yin and Yang.

Another interesting consideration is the internal double weighting. The proper flow is Shen leads Yi, Yi leads Qi, Qi leads Jin. When Shen remains after Yi arrives, or Yi dwells on the Qi, then it will only lead the Yi or Qi back to itself, and is stagnant, and is also double weighted. I visualize this as sort of like a short, thin chain like a bracelet, with a big ring on one end your finger can use to pull. As long as you keep moving the chain stretches out behind and tracks the turns you make, but if you stop, it all bunches up in a tangle. It needs to be pulled straight again to re-achieve the flow.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby wayne hansen on Fri May 10, 2019 2:01 pm

Double weighting exists on so many levels
Training to arts with opposing principles might be considered double weighting
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby johnwang on Fri May 10, 2019 4:21 pm

Yeung wrote:Zhuo Li 拙力:

“Shuō wén jiě zì” 《说文解字》(100 AD) Zhuo 拙 is not skillful .

If someone asks you, "What's brute force?" Will you be able to you demonstrate to him? In other words, do you know how to do "brute force"?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby oragami_itto on Fri May 10, 2019 5:19 pm

johnwang wrote:
Yeung wrote:Zhuo Li 拙力:

“Shuō wén jiě zì” 《说文解字》(100 AD) Zhuo 拙 is not skillful .

If someone asks you, "What's brute force?" Will you be able to you demonstrate to him? In other words, do you know how to do "brute force"?


Tell them to push me and then push in direct opposition to their Force.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby johnwang on Fri May 10, 2019 10:15 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Yeung wrote:Zhuo Li 拙力:

“Shuō wén jiě zì” 《说文解字》(100 AD) Zhuo 拙 is not skillful .

If someone asks you, "What's brute force?" Will you be able to you demonstrate to him? In other words, do you know how to do "brute force"?


Tell them to push me and then push in direct opposition to their Force.

So by your definition, brute force = force against force.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby marvin8 on Fri May 10, 2019 10:41 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Yeung wrote:Zhuo Li 拙力:

“Shuō wén jiě zì” 《说文解字》(100 AD) Zhuo 拙 is not skillful .

If someone asks you, "What's brute force?" Will you be able to you demonstrate to him? In other words, do you know how to do "brute force"?


Tell them to push me and then push in direct opposition to their Force.

Yes. johnwang seems to be illustrating that (brute force?/"head on collision") here adding that it takes "courage" and is "a very important part of my (his) daily training," which left me somewhat confused: -shrug-

johnwang wrote:This is why the training require that when A punches B, B needs to move in at the same time. It takes B's courage. Since B's head is well protected, B will have more courage than A has.

Image

. . . 2. When my opponent moves in, I move in too.

Since that day, the "head on collusion" became a very important part of my daily training.

Image


Edit: Oh, I hadn't seen your post:
johnwang wrote:So by your definition, brute force = force against force.

It's the definition basically given by the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Maybe you have another definition?
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby johnwang on Sat May 11, 2019 7:59 am

marvin8 wrote:It's the definition basically given by the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Maybe you have another definition?

My definition of brute force is non-body unification force that you only move your arms without moving your body.

In this clip, he uses his whole body to pull. It's not brute force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... H08Nah_8QA

In this clip, most of the time he only uses his arms to pull. It's brute force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... aEnWja_hLA
Last edited by johnwang on Sat May 11, 2019 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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