Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby oragami_itto on Sat May 11, 2019 8:47 am

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:If someone asks you, "What's brute force?" Will you be able to you demonstrate to him? In other words, do you know how to do "brute force"?


Tell them to push me and then push in direct opposition to their Force.

So by your definition, brute force = force against force.


Yes it's precisely that. Taijiquan in my opinion is not-that, i.e the opposite of Force on Force, which is also an example of double weighting.

So there's saying that, then there's doing that, and it can get very subtle and occult. Layers and levels of experience and understanding. Big as the universe and hidden in your sleeve.

But it all derives from not-brute-force
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby marvin8 on Sat May 11, 2019 9:45 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:It's the definition basically given by the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Maybe you have another definition?

My definition of brute force is non-body unification force that you only move your arms without moving your body.

In this clip, he uses his whole body to pull. It's not brute force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... H08Nah_8QA

Your definition is different from the dictionary's definition. I gave the dictionary definition because, it is a valid source in which everyone has access. One can "use their whole body" while still using force against force, rather than borrowing force.

johnwang wrote:In this clip, most of the time he only uses his arms to pull. It's brute force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... aEnWja_hLA

Per the dictionary, "only using one's arms to pull" may not be brute force. That exercise can be a "more efficient, carefully planned, or precisely directed method" of working the latissimus dorsi muscle (back) through isolation.

Your posted image of two rams butting heads is not an uncommon analogy to describe force against force.

FWIW, my replies were to see if you had a different way of effectively using force that I hadn't thought of.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat May 11, 2019 10:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby johnwang on Sat May 11, 2019 11:24 am

oragami_itto wrote:Yes it's precisely that. Taijiquan in my opinion is not-that, i.e the opposite of Force on Force, ...

I don't think the Taiji principle should violate the striking art principle.

Your opponent runs toward you and tries to knock your head off. You kick out your leg. Your opponent runs into your kick, drops down, and has few broken ribs.

In the striking art, "force against force" is "borow force".
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby oragami_itto on Sat May 11, 2019 11:41 am

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Yes it's precisely that. Taijiquan in my opinion is not-that, i.e the opposite of Force on Force, ...

I don't think the Taiji principle should violate the striking art principle.

Your opponent runs toward you and tries to knock your head off. You kick out your leg. Your opponent runs into your kick, drops down, and has few broken ribs.

In the striking art, "force against force" is "borow force".

Force against Force is using Force to defeat Force. B what you're describing is using opposing forces to amplify Force. Different thing entirely.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby marvin8 on Sat May 11, 2019 12:16 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Yes it's precisely that. Taijiquan in my opinion is not-that, i.e the opposite of Force on Force, ...

I don't think the Taiji principle should violate the striking art principle.

Your opponent runs toward you and tries to knock your head off. You kick out your leg. Your opponent runs into your kick, drops down, and has few broken ribs.

In the striking art, "force against force" is "borow force".

No. In the striking art, "using opponent's force against themself" is "borrow force."

In the striking art, the skillful fighter yields to opponent's force while "borrowing that force" to finish.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 11, 2019 1:58 pm

Striking is not force against force
It would only be that if your opponent was say delivering a straight punch and you punched his fist straight on
Even if you punch his fist at an angle it is not force against force
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby windwalker on Sat May 11, 2019 2:01 pm

johnwang wrote:People always like to talk about "brute force". What is it?


brute force = any method used to overcome stable equilibrium with out first making it unstable.
Many methods for how this is / can be done.

Image

interesting clip

brute force


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdXiv392_OE

non brute force


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8PfP1YY6xQ

She can not do what they do, they "probably" could not do what she does
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 11, 2019 3:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby johnwang on Sat May 11, 2019 4:32 pm

There are 2 different approaches used in CMA.

1. Taiji, Aikido, Judo - You wait for your opponent to move. You then take advantage on it.
2. SC - You apply force on your opponent, when he responds to your force, you then take advantage on it. This is why SC has many "door opening moves" (such as elbow locking, leg spring, shin bite, neck wipe, ...) that you use a move to open the door. You then enter into it.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby oragami_itto on Sat May 11, 2019 5:58 pm

johnwang wrote:There are 2 different approaches used in CMA.

1. Taiji, Aikido, Judo - You wait for your opponent to move. You then take advantage on it.
2. SC - You apply force on your opponent, when he responds to your force, you then take advantage on it. This is why SC has many "door opening moves" (such as elbow locking, leg spring, shin bite, neck wipe, ...) that you use a move to open the door. You then enter into it.


#2 definitely exists within the scope of taijiquan. I think oftentimes when talking about it we get wrapped up in the best case scenario or perfect response, but forget that taijiquan has fallback methods and alternatives to create opportunities.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby Trick on Sat May 11, 2019 8:12 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:There are 2 different approaches used in CMA.

1. Taiji, Aikido, Judo - You wait for your opponent to move. You then take advantage on it.
2. SC - You apply force on your opponent, when he responds to your force, you then take advantage on it. This is why SC has many "door opening moves" (such as elbow locking, leg spring, shin bite, neck wipe, ...) that you use a move to open the door. You then enter into it.


#2 definitely exists within the scope of taijiquan..

its also true to the other two in the 1
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 11, 2019 10:24 pm

If he moves first I move before him
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby Trick on Sat May 11, 2019 11:00 pm

yes thats an higer level that is to go for in taijiquan and also aikido. the work upon grabbing/touch(grappling) is phase at the beggining
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby D_Glenn on Sun May 12, 2019 9:27 am

Double-Heavy/ the sickness or fault of being Double-Weighted comes from the rickshaw, which is designed to cut the weight of the passengers in half when it's used correctly. The guy pulling it can just stand there and casually hold the weight of two people with one arm on the handle. When the passengers don't sit properly and relax back into their seat then they've defeated the purpose of the rickshaw and they're now Twice as Heavy/ Double Heavy (双重 Double-weighted) and it would be easier for the puller to carry the person on his back instead of in the rickshaw.
It’s about using Fulcrums instead of brute strength.
To avoid the stagnation of double heavy, lean and sink.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby marvin8 on Sun May 12, 2019 9:57 am

johnwang wrote:There are 2 different approaches used in CMA.

1. Taiji, Aikido, Judo - You wait for your opponent to move. You then take advantage on it.

One can "wait for the opponent to move," while at the same time control the fight (see article below).

johnwang wrote:2. SC - You apply force on your opponent, when he responds to your force, you then take advantage on it. This is why SC has many "door opening moves" (such as elbow locking, leg spring, shin bite, neck wipe, ...) that you use a move to open the door. You then enter into it.

1. and 2. can be two similar approaches depending on one's definition of "force."

Excerpt from "Tai Chi Fighting Strategy:"
Sigung Clear wrote:One of the most important points in the Tai Chi classics about fighting strategy is the idea that the enemy attacks first and that the Tai Chi practitioner actually makes contact first.

The key to actually doing this is…

…timing, distance, movement and placement of techniques.

Understanding this aspect of Tai Chi is essential to the use Tai Chi as a fighting art and specifically refers to the economy of motion that is central to how Tai Chi is used and practiced.


The essential physical strategy of Tai Chi.

Tai Chi is a walking art. The use of distance and space is essential.

Understanding critical distances from just beyond reach with a kick to up close body contact is the essence of the physical strategy of Tai Chi. Walking out of range or into range when an attacker is unprepared for it can really tilt the outcome of a fight in your favor.

One scenario that can be used to understand this concept is as follows.
1. My enemy attacks from 9 feet away.
2. They have to cover most of the 9 feet just to reach me.
3. I am ready to strike and counter attack.
4. While they try to cover the distance to reach me…
5. I hit them as they are still approaching.


They were attacking first but I landed the first hit.

Another way to look at this from a physical standpoint is that the Tai Chi practitioner is soft and flowing evading the strikes of the attacker until the attacker is in a bad position.
Then, the Tai Chi practitioner strikes the attacker hitting them at their weakest point with the best hit for the position, direction and speed at the time. Once again, the attacker was striking first but the Tai Chi practitioner actually hit first (and ideally last).


From Comments:
Sigung Clear on March 9, 2010 wrote:Hi Dan,
Thank you for the question.

Because of the different arts I study and practice several answers immediately come to mind. However, I will keep my answer appropriate to higher level Tai Chi principles and application.

Tai Chi tends to use sophisticated positioning prior to engagement that makes it difficult for an opponent to reach the Tai Chi player and then when the opponent tries to reach the Tai Chi player they are stepping into the trap that allows the Tai Chi practitioner to shift and strike without additional stepping. The Tai Chi player IS still advancing but the advancement tends to be a shift in body position and applied body weight into the area where the opponent has moved in order to be close enough to strike.

The timing is the critical issue as the Tai Chi player wants the contact to happen while the opponent is moving into position and / or preparing to strike but has not yet struck.

Keep up the good training.
Best Regards.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby wayne hansen on Sun May 12, 2019 10:34 am

I would love to see the sophisticated positioning the tai chi player uses
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