Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby oragami_itto on Mon May 13, 2019 7:55 am

wayne hansen wrote:I would love to see the sophisticated positioning the tai chi player uses


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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby charles on Mon May 13, 2019 8:54 am

D_Glenn wrote:Double-Heavy/ the sickness or fault of being Double-Weighted comes from the rickshaw, which is designed to cut the weight of the passengers in half when it's used correctly. The guy pulling it can just stand there and casually hold the weight of two people with one arm on the handle. When the passengers don't sit properly and relax back into their seat then they've defeated the purpose of the rickshaw and they're now Twice as Heavy/ Double Heavy (双重 Double-weighted) and it would be easier for the puller to carry the person on his back instead of in the rickshaw.



Hmmm, let's think about this.

According to Wikipedia, "Rickshaws were invented in Japan circa 1869." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickshaw. The implication is that "double-heavy", as a concept, didn't exist in Taijiquan prior to that, if it is based on a device that wasn't invented until then. That implies "double-heavy" is a relatively "modern" addition to Taijiquan theory. Maybe it is, I don't know, but that's the implication of your statement.

Second, there are three "classes" of levers, 1, 2 and 3. Ideally, a rickshaw is none of these. Ideally, the centre of gravity (weight) of the passenger(s) is directly above the axle of the rickshaw. That way, the static weight of the passenger is entirely taken by the wheel and axle: the rickshaw puller carries none of the weight of the passenger, at least while on flat ground. (Acceleration of the passenger (and weight of the rickshaw) is a different issue and not related to the weight the puller needs to lift.)

Image

If the passenger leans backwards sufficiently that his or her weight is on the opposite side of the axle from the puller, it is then a Class 1 lever. The puller has significantly more distance from the axle than the passenger: the puller will not reach even one times the weight of the passenger until the distance of the passenger from the axle is the same as that of the puller. The design of the rickshaw makes that impossible. At no time will the puller ever carry double the weight of the passenger.

Image

If the passenger leans forwards sufficiently that his or her weight in on the SAME side of the axle as the puller, it is then a Class 2 lever. One of the characteristics of a Class 2 lever is that its mechanical advantage is always greater than 1. That is, the puller will never lift more than the weight of the person: it will always be less.

Image

Last, the only lever type in which the puller would lift more than the weight of the passenger is in a Class 3 lever, that requires both puller and passenger to be on the same side of the axle, and have the puller closer to the axle than the passenger, an arrangement that is physically impossible in a standard rickshaw design.

Image


In short, there is no arrangement of a standard rickshaw design that would result in the puller having to lift more than the weight of the passenger: in all practical designs, the puller would lift between zero and the weight of the passenger. Hence, it seems very unlikely that the Taijiquan tenet of "double-weighted" or "double-heavy" has anything to do with the weight distribution of a passenger in a rickshaw.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby charles on Mon May 13, 2019 9:02 am

oragami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I would love to see the sophisticated positioning the tai chi player uses




What has this video to do with anything in this discussion, either double-weighted or "sophisticated positioning the tai chi player uses"?
Last edited by charles on Mon May 13, 2019 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby windwalker on Mon May 13, 2019 9:06 am

In short, there is no arrangement of a standard rickshaw design that would result in the puller having to lift more than the weight of the passenger: in all practical designs, the puller would lift between zero and the weight of the passenger. Hence, it seems very unlikely that the Taijiquan tenet of "double-weighted" or "double-heavy" has anything to do with the weight distribution of a passenger in a rickshaw.


Well done, very clear, precise.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby D_Glenn on Mon May 13, 2019 10:27 am

Here’s a drawing done in 1680

Image

It’s essentially a wheelbarrow.
The Chinese first wrote about using gunpowder in 142ad. Who knows what year BC that they invented a wheelbarrow and subsequent two wheeled cart to carry livestock.
Twice as heavy is obviously an exaggeration. The reason the Chinese pin their animals in tight cages is because the sudden shift of an animal moving in a large cage, would add just a little extra erractic weight, hence the term Double Heavy.

The difference between being able to hold the cart up with one pinky, versus curling up the bar with both biceps.
But needing to constantly switch between that difference during erratic weight shifting is the real problem/ sickness.

I’m not sure, but I believe all the other terminology that goes with ‘double weighted’ was thought up by martial artists building upon the analogy.

.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby D_Glenn on Mon May 13, 2019 10:49 am

Although double lightness is also a thing where suddenly it shifts toward being lighter and the bar flies up into your face. Being able to not have to lift up, nor press down, and only worried about pushing forward.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby wayne hansen on Mon May 13, 2019 10:53 am

oragami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I would love to see the sophisticated positioning the tai chi player uses




Give me a break
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Mon May 13, 2019 10:59 am

charles wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Double-Heavy/ the sickness or fault of being Double-Weighted comes from the rickshaw, which is designed to cut the weight of the passengers in half when it's used correctly. The guy pulling it can just stand there and casually hold the weight of two people with one arm on the handle. When the passengers don't sit properly and relax back into their seat then they've defeated the purpose of the rickshaw and they're now Twice as Heavy/ Double Heavy (双重 Double-weighted) and it would be easier for the puller to carry the person on his back instead of in the rickshaw.






In short, there is no arrangement of a standard rickshaw design that would result in the puller having to lift more than the weight of the passenger: in all practical designs, the puller would lift between zero and the weight of the passenger. Hence, it seems very unlikely that the Taijiquan tenet of "double-weighted" or "double-heavy" has anything to do with the weight distribution of a passenger in a rickshaw.


I think you missed the point. When the persons weight is no longer centered, the rickshaw driver would feel like the load was heavier or even double the weight of when it is properly balanced, not double the weight of the actual objects carried. D-Glenn's explanation makes a lot of sense. Double-weighted could be viewed as simply trying to exert force in a way that is inefficient. This could be similar to using brute-force, in that the strength exerted would be done in an unintelligent manner, without forethought, or like a dumb brute.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby oragami_itto on Mon May 13, 2019 11:11 am

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I would love to see the sophisticated positioning the tai chi player uses




What has this video to do with anything in this discussion, either double-weighted or "sophisticated positioning the tai chi player uses"?


Marvin posted some writing of Richard clears, Wayne said he wanted to see what Richard clear was writing about, so I posted a video of Richard clears idea of combat training
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby charles on Mon May 13, 2019 11:25 am

D_Glenn wrote:Here’s a drawing done in 1680

It’s essentially a wheelbarrow.


Thanks for the additional detail.

It's a wheelbarrow, Class 2 lever, if the passenger's weight is not over the axle, but between the axle and the person pushing. The further back the passenger leans, the greater the lever arm (distance) from the axle to the passenger's weight (centre of mass). However, the physical arrangement wouldn't allow much lever arm from the axle to the passenger.

Who knows what year BC that they invented a wheelbarrow and subsequent two wheeled cart to carry livestock.
Twice as heavy is obviously an exaggeration. The reason the Chinese pin their animals in tight cages is because the sudden shift of an animal moving in a large cage, would add just a little extra erractic weight, hence the term Double Heavy.


Certainly, a shifting load, and consequently constantly changing "effort" by the person pushing/pulling would make pushing or pulling more difficult.

But needing to constantly switch between that difference during erratic weight shifting is the real problem/ sickness.


Ah, that's an interesting statement. I'm trying to figure out how that applies to a single person who is "double-weighted". The issue, you suggest, is the constantly-changing "live load" and the constant changing of effort involved in response.

Bare with me here: I'm trying to understand what you have written. I'm standing in a bow stance without moving, weight mostly on forward leg. Someone pushes on me with constant, unchanging force, but I do not change my weighting, but hold it static. If the problem/sickness is erratic "live loading", where does this enter into it?

Is the issue that the person pushing is constantly changing the magnitude or direction of his pushing force and that I am trying to adjust to this "erratic", constantly-changing force - like trying to balance/maintain a two-wheeled cart with a shifting load? That is, the problem/sickness is that I'm unable to do what's necessary to balance/maintain the constantly changing force? The opponent's actions are the constantly-changing live-load and I'm the rickshaw puller/driver trying to respond so that the livestock/passenger don't end up on the ground?

Or, is it something else?
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby charles on Mon May 13, 2019 11:30 am

oragami_itto wrote:Marvin posted some writing of Richard clears, Wayne said he wanted to see what Richard clear was writing about, so I posted a video of Richard clears idea of combat training


Thanks for the clarification.

Clear stated, "Tai Chi tends to use sophisticated positioning prior to engagement that makes it difficult for an opponent to reach the Tai Chi player and then when the opponent tries to reach the Tai Chi player they are stepping into the trap that allows the Tai Chi practitioner to shift and strike without additional stepping. "

Wayne said he wanted "to see the sophisticated positioning [of] the tai chi player" about which Clear wrote. That video wasn't about that: it was about the "devastating" open, heavy-hand striking techniques. There was no mention of "sophisticated positioning prior to engagement...". He did show how to prevail against wood boards, however. You never know when that could come in handy around the construction site or other such environments.
Last edited by charles on Mon May 13, 2019 11:40 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby oragami_itto on Mon May 13, 2019 12:26 pm

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Marvin posted some writing of Richard clears, Wayne said he wanted to see what Richard clear was writing about, so I posted a video of Richard clears idea of combat training


Thanks for the clarification.

Clear stated, "Tai Chi tends to use sophisticated positioning prior to engagement that makes it difficult for an opponent to reach the Tai Chi player and then when the opponent tries to reach the Tai Chi player they are stepping into the trap that allows the Tai Chi practitioner to shift and strike without additional stepping. "

Wayne said he wanted "to see the sophisticated positioning [of] the tai chi player" about which Clear wrote. That video wasn't about that: it was about the "devastating" open, heavy-hand striking techniques. There was no mention of "sophisticated positioning prior to engagement...". He did show how to prevail against wood boards, however. You never know when that could come in handy around the construction site or other such environments.


... Ok?

You must be a riot at parties.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby marvin8 on Mon May 13, 2019 12:46 pm

charles wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:But needing to constantly switch between that difference during erratic weight shifting is the real problem/ sickness.


Ah, that's an interesting statement. I'm trying to figure out how that applies to a single person who is "double-weighted". The issue, you suggest, is the constantly-changing "live load" and the constant changing of effort involved in response.

Bare with me here: I'm trying to understand what you have written. I'm standing in a bow stance without moving, weight mostly on forward leg. Someone pushes on me with constant, unchanging force, but I do not change my weighting, but hold it static. If the problem/sickness is erratic "live loading", where does this enter into it?

Is the issue that the person pushing is constantly changing the magnitude or direction of his pushing force and that I am trying to adjust to this "erratic", constantly-changing force - like trying to balance/maintain a two-wheeled cart with a shifting load? That is, the problem/sickness is that I'm unable to do what's necessary to balance/maintain the constantly changing force? The opponent's actions are the constantly-changing live-load and I'm the rickshaw puller/driver trying to respond so that the livestock/passenger don't end up on the ground?

Or, is it something else?

That's what I understand the problem to be. One needs the ability to change to avoid double weighting.

One can time an attacker by waiting for them to become double weighted. Or, one can create this timing by issuing two forces: a force to create resistance and a force applied to the opponent's weak angle.

Chen Zhonghua explains and shows the application of double heavy.

From "Double Heavy:"
WEBMASTER2 on 2012/12/14 wrote:Any time you have a large surface of contact you are double heavy – no surface – only use a dot. The exception is when you intentionally create a large surface to counter your opponent’s particular action.


Chen Zhonghua at 1:33 wrote:Whenever you’re not double heavy you’re stronger. We want to find the two spots. But, we cannot be double heavy. So, we have to use one physical and one intent. What is the intent? Intent is a direction. Physical is an anchor. So, I anchor physically on him. The direction (intent) is I twist my waist. This (anchor) is constant. This (waist rotation) is also constant but this constant one here is not physically touching. . . . What happened? Double heavy. The hands merged with the turn. . . . But, you can’t catch them because they’re not real. This turn is not real. It’s a directional change. There’s nothing physical.

Practicalmethod
Published on Apr 24, 2008

Here is a clip of Master Chen Zhonghua showing how to use one foot to avoid double heavy. This is not a technique. Just a model to demonstrate how energy works in double heavy/non-double heavy situations. This was in De Glind in Holland in April 2008. Master Chen is assisted by Rein v.d. Kuilen http://www.chenzhonghua.org:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22iftGHehfU
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby D_Glenn on Mon May 13, 2019 6:25 pm

Maybe in the first 6 months to a year someone could maybe relate the term double weighted to the natural wobbly clumsy movement when learning to slowly move, where you have to think about shifting your own weight from leg to leg etc.

But the actual terminology is really only applied to 2 person push hands, sparring and ultimately fighting another person. So I don’t now how you could tweak the analogy to fit into a solo practice.

Erratic, aka unexpected, as it’s something that is happening out of sight and you can only feel it in the handlebar.
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Re: Shuang Chong 双重(double weighted)

Postby everything on Mon May 13, 2019 7:09 pm

I was going to say "how clumsy are these people?"

But if you look up any highlight reel of Olympic judo wins, there is a shit ton of "double heavy" brute force used. Why is that? It is not because those competitors have no idea how to borrow force. Some of it is because the points mandate you have to take initiative. But there is still a surprising lack of "art" and a surprising amount of "Brute force". vs. if you look up, say, Marcelo Garcia highlights, there isn't any double heavy. I'm not saying bjj > judo whatsoever. I vastly prefer judo. But this seems a little weird.
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