Pivital Question

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Pivital Question

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 16, 2019 3:04 pm

Bao wrote:Lol! You really like trying to confuse subjects, don’t you? :P That is basic Dantian rotation practice. I mentioned silk reeling. Maybe sort of same but still different. Not what I spoke about. They say that Dantian rotation is a part of silk reeling, but I almost never see that kind of spine movement in silk reeling practice.


smh

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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Bao on Thu May 16, 2019 3:17 pm

Now you are just being ridiculous. If you think that posting Picard pics or derailing threads or just being a dick is funny you sincerely need a little bit of growing up.

If you don’t understand the differences between Dantian rotation and silk reeling I won’t try to help you. If you cannot see where Dantian rotation is present or missing I won’t try to help you.
Last edited by Bao on Thu May 16, 2019 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby charles on Thu May 16, 2019 4:10 pm

Bao wrote:Lol! You really like trying to confuse subjects, don’t you? :P That is basic Dantian rotation practice. I mentioned silk reeling. Maybe sort of same but still different. Not what I spoke about. They say that Dantian rotation is a part of silk reeling, but I almost never see that kind of spine movement in silk reeling practice.


CXW explicitly teaches that there is one (primary) principle and three techniques for achieving that principle. The First Principle is "when one parts move, all parts move", or "when the dan tian moves, the whole body moves". The First Technique is "moving the dan tian left and right". The Second Technique is "moving the dan tian forward and back". The third is any simultaneous combination of the First and Second Techniques.

As Chen Villagers practice them, the single arm silk reeling circles are the embodiment of the First Technique, moving the dan tian left and right. There is, by definition, little of the Second Technique involved. The second technique, moving the dan tian forward and back, involves opening and closing the chest and bowing and un-bowing the spine. One won't see a lot of spinal action in the Village versions of the single arm circles. There are Village exercises specifically for the second technique, one of which is rotating the wrists against the abdomen. In teaching that in a seminar, CXW stated, "Move like a snake", and then showed the action large and obvious, where the motions of chest and spine were very evident. He did that for all of about 3 seconds: if you blinked, you missed it. The rest of the time, there was nothing overt to see: if you blinked, you just learned to copy the visible external choreography, not the spinal "wave" that drives it.

Feng Zhiqiang has more exercises and more varied exercises. He also tended to perform the actions larger and more obviously, versus the Village performance that tends to be minimalistic.

One of the challenges in teaching/practicing in two distinct planes - forward/back and left/right - is the transition to three dimensional movement. That is realized in Hong's Practical Method, which doesn't divide movement into two planes to start with. Beginners start out trying to do 3D stuff, making it more difficult, at least at the beginning.
Last edited by charles on Thu May 16, 2019 4:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby robert on Thu May 16, 2019 4:23 pm

Bao wrote:They say that Dantian rotation is a part of silk reeling, but I almost never see that kind of spine movement in silk reeling practice.

You need to watch that clip of CXW again. In the first twenty seconds you don't see the articulation of the spine, but it is there. Watch CZQ - he does the same. Then around 0:20 he shows you an exaggerated movement to help you. The exaggerated movement isn't really the same thing, it's external. When it's internalized it's barely perceptible. In the first couple workshops I did with CXW in the late 90's he asked if anyone would like to feel his dantian and I took the opportunity. I put my right hand under his navel and then he took my left hand and put it on his mingmen. As he raised and lowered his arms you could not see his spinal movement, but I could feel it.

From David Gaffney's blog.
Chen Xiaoxing often repeats the phrase “if you can see it it is too much.” For example as a practitioner shifts weight from one side to the other, the intention is to move the waist in a narrow almost imperceptible arc. Just as not engaging the waist is a fault, over-turning is also an error. So we need to look beyond aesthetics and the desire to show everything.


I think this is part of the reason a lot of people don't get taiji. When it is done correctly you don't see it and if it's exaggerated it's a bit off the mark.

A couple sayings in Chen taiji that Charles refers to.

1 以腰爲軸
Yi yao wei zhou (zhou - axis/axle/spool [for thread])
Use the waist/lower back as an axis

2 胸腰折疊
Xiong yao zhe die
Chest and waist bend/fold

If you understand some interesting things fall out of this. In Chen taiji pair peng and an and lu and ji. People who do xingyi can pair rise and fall and overturn and drill.
Last edited by robert on Thu May 16, 2019 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Bao on Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 pm

robert wrote:From David Gaffney's blog.
Chen Xiaoxing often repeats the phrase “if you can see it it is too much.” For example as a practitioner shifts weight from one side to the other, the intention is to move the waist in a narrow almost imperceptible arc. Just as not engaging the waist is a fault, over-turning is also an error. So we need to look beyond aesthetics and the desire to show everything.


I think this is part of the reason a lot of people don't get taiji. When it is done correctly you don't see it and if it's exaggerated it's a bit off the mark.


Agree. This is something I can relate to. Though sometimes lack of something is just lack of something, sometimes what you don’t see is just not there.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Bao on Thu May 16, 2019 4:38 pm

charles wrote:. In teaching that in a seminar, CXW stated, "Move like a snake", and then showed the action large and obvious, where the motions of chest and spine were very evident. He did that for all of about 3 seconds: if you blinked, you missed it. The rest of the time, there was nothing overt to see: if you blinked, you just learned to copy the visible external choreography, not the spinal "wave" that drives it..


Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Pivitol Question

Postby Walk the Torque on Thu May 16, 2019 7:30 pm

Steve Rowe wrote:I'd say it's difficult to separate them. The abdomen is the ball of manipulating muscle that the spine sits in - which is connected to the rest of the core as defined in Tom Myer's deep front line, this core is rooted at the feet, manipulated heavily at the waist making the spine open, close, stretch, connect, twist and bow sending the power out through the limbs. If you look at the Yang Family exercises the specifically work these movements to develop the lines of power through the body.


This mostly came up for me in terms of transverse movement i.e. the torso turning side to side. Leaving aside the spinal whipping/undulating, which is all very cool, just the act of changing the axis of movement from the lower dan tien/abdo-ball to the spinal column brings about a very different quality to the power, movement and in fact feel to the opponent.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Walk the Torque on Thu May 16, 2019 7:37 pm

[quote

CXW has more Dantian movement, but still I don’t see a very articulated spine movement in his basic silk reeling arm circles. He seem to be mostly quite straight and does not use power generation directly from spine movement. He mostly keeps the back straight.

[/quote]

I See CXW's movement in this clip as a perfect illustration of what I was talking about; notice the way his spine is the center, pivotal point of the movement, especially at the end.

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Re: Pivital Question

Postby GrahamB on Fri May 17, 2019 2:27 am

Bao, I'm not being a dick, it's just lack of time to rebut all the fake news claims you make.

That's why fake news wins in the end - it takes 2 seconds to make a fake claim, then 20 minutes to provide a detailed enough answer to explain why that is not true. By which time the person has gone on to make 5 other fake claims. It's endless. You can't win. Easier to post a Picard.

Did you see the small essay Charles had to write to rebut your claim? Read it - listen to him and Robert. I'm not finding this a good use of my time.

And why do you keep needing to attack Chen style? Nobody had even mentioned Chen style in this thread.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Trick on Fri May 17, 2019 3:48 am

spine waving usually becomes more pronounced in when things speed up a little especially when fali'ing, and that is also another factor why it is hardly noticeably in yang taijiquan
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby everything on Fri May 17, 2019 7:31 am

can you somehow relate this to swimming examples instead?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby charles on Fri May 17, 2019 9:20 am

everything wrote:can you somehow relate this to swimming examples instead?


Initially, I thought maybe the butterfly stroke. After watching a few videos of it, it isn't really very similar. The body is used in a different way in Taijiquan than in swimming strokes.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby windwalker on Fri May 17, 2019 10:33 am

Walk the Torque wrote:So, after honing all action, power and sensitivity in my center (abdomen) for years, I've stated experimenting again with the use of the spine as a pivotal point from which to issue. I haven't given up on the center but am finding increased power and speed from doing this. and was just wondering if others have experimented (of course they have ::)) with this?

Konn


another way of looking at it, one that we use...

illustrations from "Yang-style Tai Chi Technique Described True by Wei Shu Ren"
Image


Think of this as a line with nodes and antinodal points. The crown of the head should feel as though suspended creating a main upper nodal point, the perineum is pulled down acts as main lower nodal point.


Image


The "rings" describe a field or area of awareness that help define the arc or range of movement.

Image



Image

Image


The vertical line associated with the string of the ancient bell can be divided into four sections; thus defining five points.
4 resonators, 3 antinodes, and 2 nodes which may become antinodes.

thought some might find it interesting.
Have been working on updating some of the theory used,
aligning them with applied physics.

The movement associated with it can be seen depending on the persons level viewing it, or depending on the persons level of development doing it. In either case it may be seen or not...

Some masters show little to no outer movement.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 17, 2019 11:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby wayne hansen on Fri May 17, 2019 12:17 pm

When someone mentioned swimming as an auxiliary exercise the other day I almost mentioned this
Do butterfly at tai chi speed
When you can do this you will Se you have achieved something
Not only do tai chi people tell me they find it hard but so do swimmers and I am talking about the highest level swimmers
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby everything on Fri May 17, 2019 4:54 pm

hmm interesting. one of my kids can do the butterfly in slow motion. in fact, he can't do it quickly for whatever reason. good swimmer like a turtle, not like a shark. not sure what it did for him, though
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