Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

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Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby Kelley Graham on Thu May 16, 2019 7:32 am

Hi: Our martial strategy is to encourage the opponent to first feel wrong, then feel pain and then panic. I'm curious how others approach this 'mental bridge', specifically the 'wrong-ness'. Most clearly know how to get the pain and panic. :)
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu May 16, 2019 10:37 am

Very interesting. For one of my systems (former these days) we always wanted them to feel right up until the end. Less resistance and change that way. In our taiji, there may have been a bit of what you talk about but that was only when playing nice with throws and sweeps. It seemed to often befuddle people on the receiving end. But, when things were a bit more serious, my teacher said to use "cold energy" and to simply end it before they could do anything. That was pretty similar to the higher level jujutsu I mentioned first.

Could you talk a bit more about how you make them feel "wrong?"
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby Interloper on Thu May 16, 2019 1:58 pm

"Kuzushi on contact" is a concept I came up in in aikijujutsu as both a weapons-based and empty-hand art. This means to capture the opponent's center of mass instantly upon contact (through 6-directional force). The nature of the kuzushi is that it takes the opponent's physical balance and equilibrium, and also shocks his nervous system and so takes his mental equilibrium as well.

After the initial kuzushi, there is a follow-up attack to further shock the opponent and prevent him from regaining his equilibrium, and then the third attack is a "finish" -- a take-down, lock, choke, compression, etc. that finishes it. It's kind of a 1-2-3 setup.

In this kind of art, rather than throwing an opponent away, he is kept close and "smothered," his skeletal structure is wrapped up and compressed to prevent movement, his diaphragm is compressed to control his breathing, and he is locked up in ways that mechanically control his body. There are psychological aspects to this, as well as neurological effects, but fear and pain compliance are not necessarily used or needed.
Last edited by Interloper on Thu May 16, 2019 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby Bao on Thu May 16, 2019 2:45 pm

I'm curious how others approach this 'mental bridge', specifically the 'wrong-ness'.


Interesting... never heard this “first feel wrong, then feel pain and then panic” before but it seems accurate. I remember the first times I met my first teachers. They were so incredibly calm and very still, didn’t move more than absolutely necessary and yet they were in complete control. And I was treated like a rag doll. I had never felt so small, confused and helpless before. So for the mind maybe “calmness” should be the first step, at least from this POV. And panic might happen before the pain.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby oragami_itto on Thu May 16, 2019 4:14 pm

Interloper wrote:There are psychological aspects to this, as well as neurological effects, but fear and pain compliance are not necessarily used or needed.


I tend to agree with this way of thinking. They might get afraid or panic but it doesn't matter to me. What I'm doing should work regardless of their mental state. If I'm doing it right, I've got control, and for most people, that is frightening and causes panic. The body positions I put them into may be uncomfortable or painful, and that can cause panic too, I suppose. But it's an effect, not a cause, and not what is directly pursued.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby Kelley Graham on Fri May 17, 2019 1:20 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Very interesting. For one of my systems (former these days) we always wanted them to feel right up until the end. Less resistance and change that way. In our taiji, there may have been a bit of what you talk about but that was only when playing nice with throws and sweeps. It seemed to often befuddle people on the receiving end. But, when things were a bit more serious, my teacher said to use "cold energy" and to simply end it before they could do anything. That was pretty similar to the higher level jujutsu I mentioned first.

Could you talk a bit more about how you make them feel "wrong?"


This is such a deep topic. I'm in the middle of a big project. I'll share as i find the time.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby LaoDan on Fri May 17, 2019 7:48 am

Mental aspects can be very significant, especially since our minds are poor at multitasking. If someone is off balanced (feeling wrong, panicked, confused, helpless...) their mind will probably be occupied with the task of recovering, and this is one reason TJQ emphasizes maintaining central equilibrium and a calm mind for oneself, and controlling and disrupting these in the opponent. Take the opponent’s mind away from the fight and one should have an advantage. Some people can keep their focus and use a slight off balancing to generate power as it spins around like a slightly off center top, but most probably will just retreat into themselves.

However, Ian’s point about having them feel right, until the counter attack, is also correct since we also want to be able to lure the opponent and hopefully get them to over commit, which will put them in a worse situation (where they may not be able to even attempt to recover when one counter attacks them). Cold energy, where there is no preparation that the opponent can detect, is useful in the luring situation since the counter attack comes before the opponent realizes that they are vulnerable and they therefore do not have time to correct their situation until it is too late.

Of course, luring and disrupting can be used separately or in combination with each other.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby Kelley Graham on Fri May 17, 2019 7:59 am

[aside] hmmm, it's interesting that, in discussing strategy, tactics are used. :) As I continue training and teaching I find that I spend much more time trying to clarify strategy and avoiding tactical analysis. [/aside]
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby Dmitri on Fri May 17, 2019 3:38 pm

That's very close to how I was taught in tai chi. But then with Gracie JJ, these are in reverse: first they feel panic, then pain, and then realize how wrong they were. If they're still awake. :D
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby Interloper on Fri May 17, 2019 3:46 pm

Kelley Graham wrote:[aside] hmmm, it's interesting that, in discussing strategy, tactics are used. :) As I continue training and teaching I find that I spend much more time trying to clarify strategy and avoiding tactical analysis. [/aside]


The concept of "kuzushi on contact" is a strategy. The "3 step" process is the tactical expression of it. The use of internally driven manipulation of the opponent's joints and skeletal structure without inducing pain or fear is a tactical choice, but likewise is part of the root strategy of kuzushi on contact.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby windwalker on Fri May 17, 2019 3:48 pm

"you gotta have heart"


an american master



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaUCIN51M_Q

words of CMA history

"Either the challenger was maimed or killed," noted Chin. "He never let one challenger leave his school without injury. He was a master of using the technique of cruelty." There are four principles for Hop Gar: cruelty, evasion, penetration and interception.

When asked about cruelty, Chin stoically quotes the Lama White Crane kung fu classics:

"When hunting a tiger, destroy it. Otherwise, a wounded tiger will return to harm you. When weeding a garden, pull up the roots.
Otherwise, the weeds will grow back. Whether the lion is hunting an elephant or a rabbit, the lion always uses full force."

http://www.kungfumagazine.net/magazine/ ... rticle=661

This mind set developed training in certain styles
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby Kelley Graham on Sun May 19, 2019 9:11 am

What would the benefits be of using ‘wrong-ness’ first?
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby johnwang on Sun May 19, 2019 9:40 am

windwalker wrote: He never let one challenger leave his school without injury.

My teacher also told me this. This is the only way to stop future challengers from knocking on your door when you are sick, or old.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby everything on Sun May 19, 2019 9:58 am

This is an outdated and insanely dumb philosophy. Anyone who knows no MA can kill anyone at any time very easily. At least in 'murica. Lots of road rage and school shootings. Having a "fist fight" in some safe way died out a long time ago.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby windwalker on Sun May 19, 2019 10:07 am

johnwang wrote:
windwalker wrote: He never let one challenger leave his school without injury.

My teacher also told me this. This is the only way to stop future challengers from knocking on your door when you are sick, or old.



All the teachers I trained with held this philosophy.
Fighting was the context, lens, through which we trained CMA through.

Anything else gained, health, philosophy, ect can be through other methods and practices.
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