Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby johnwang on Sun May 19, 2019 10:17 am

everything wrote:This is an outdated and insanely dumb philosophy. Anyone who knows no MA can kill anyone at any time very easily. At least in 'murica. Lots of road rage and school shootings. Having a "fist fight" in some safe way died out a long time ago.

I have been challenged more than 20 times through my life (include 7 of my own students). One time a stranger and his girlfriend knocked on my front door and wanted to play PH in my living room. I told him that I don't do PH but I could spar/wrestle with him. He said that he had bad knee and could not spar/wrestle.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby johnwang on Sun May 19, 2019 10:25 am

windwalker wrote:All the teachers I trained with held this philosophy.
Fighting was the context, lens, through which we trained CMA through.

Anything else gained, health, philosophy, ect can be through other methods and practices.

Most teachers will teach their advance students a set of skill that's used to deal with "unfriendly" challengers. Those techniques all look like accident. It doesn't look like the person has intention to injury the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPewrs7 ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby marvin8 on Sun May 19, 2019 5:06 pm

LaoDan wrote:However, Ian’s point about having them feel right, until the counter attack, is also correct since we also want to be able to lure the opponent and hopefully get them to over commit, which will put them in a worse situation (where they may not be able to even attempt to recover when one counter attacks them). Cold energy, where there is no preparation that the opponent can detect, is useful in the luring situation since the counter attack comes before the opponent realizes that they are vulnerable and they therefore do not have time to correct their situation until it is too late.

Yes, here is an example. Conor closes opponent's left hand line of attack, lures the opponent to over commit the right hand (borrows force) and finishes with his own left hook, using "kuzushi (double weight) before contact."

If Conor attempted to move in, make contact (bridge, trap, pull or grab), listen and make the opponent "feel wrong," the opponent may have countered more effectively:

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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby Kelley Graham on Mon May 20, 2019 1:12 pm

marvin8 wrote:
LaoDan wrote:However, Ian’s point about having them feel right, until the counter attack, is also correct since we also want to be able to lure the opponent and hopefully get them to over commit, which will put them in a worse situation (where they may not be able to even attempt to recover when one counter attacks them). Cold energy, where there is no preparation that the opponent can detect, is useful in the luring situation since the counter attack comes before the opponent realizes that they are vulnerable and they therefore do not have time to correct their situation until it is too late.

Yes, here is an example. Conor closes opponent's left hand line of attack, lures the opponent to over commit the right hand (borrows force) and finishes with his own left hook, using "kuzushi (double weight) before contact."

If Conor attempted to move in, make contact (bridge, trap, pull or grab), listen and make the opponent "feel wrong," the opponent may have countered more effectively:

Image

Image


In the slower example, face on, when the guy misses his right, you can clearly see the ‘wrong-ness’. He just stands there waiting for the knockout left.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby windwalker on Mon May 20, 2019 1:16 pm

.in the slower example, face on, when the guy misses his right, you can clearly see the ‘wrong-ness’. He just stands there waiting for the knockout left.


He missed his Target the other one took advantage of it.

He's not waiting for anything.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon May 20, 2019 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby Kelley Graham on Mon May 20, 2019 7:28 pm

windwalker wrote:
.in the slower example, face on, when the guy misses his right, you can clearly see the ‘wrong-ness’. He just stands there waiting for the knockout left.


He missed his Target the other one took advantage of it.

He's not waiting for anything.


Dropped guard, aimless footwork, leading with the chin = Waiting for the left.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby windwalker on Mon May 20, 2019 7:47 pm

Kelley Graham wrote:
windwalker wrote:
.in the slower example, face on, when the guy misses his right, you can clearly see the ‘wrong-ness’. He just stands there waiting for the knockout left.


He missed his Target the other one took advantage of it.

He's not waiting for anything.


Dropped guard, aimless footwork, leading with the chin = Waiting for the left.


Which has to do with training, nothing about feeling wrong.......
He missed, happens....
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby marvin8 on Mon May 20, 2019 9:22 pm

Kelley Graham wrote:Hi: Our martial strategy is to encourage the opponent to first feel wrong . . .

What would the benefits be of using ‘wrong-ness’ first?

What do you mean by "Our martial strategy is to encourage the opponent to first feel wrong" and "using wrong-ness?" I used LaoDan's description which I included in my reply, because the OP did not offer one.

Kelley Graham wrote:
windwalker wrote:
.in the slower example, face on, when the guy misses his right, you can clearly see the ‘wrong-ness’. He just stands there waiting for the knockout left.


He missed his Target the other one took advantage of it.

He's not waiting for anything.


Dropped guard, aimless footwork, leading with the chin = Waiting for the left.

It wasn't that. It was a straight right with a step that was most likely intended to be turned into a grab and takedown, as the opponent has a wrestling background.

Conor was able to set up and time it by making the opponent "feel right" in throwing it—not by "encouraging the opponent to first feel wrong," which can be countered as LaoDan explained.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby everything on Mon May 20, 2019 9:28 pm

So Attack By Drawing

Or feign an opening or a weakness

Or lead to emptiness?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby LaoDan on Tue May 21, 2019 7:05 am

everything wrote:So Attack By Drawing

Or feign an opening or a weakness

Or lead to emptiness?

As Zhang Yun explains it:
Yin – lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go
where you want him to go,
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby marvin8 on Tue May 21, 2019 9:31 am

LaoDan wrote:
everything wrote:So Attack By Drawing

Or feign an opening or a weakness

Or lead to emptiness?

As Zhang Yun explains it:
Yin – lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go
where you want him to go,

Tai Chi Classics wrote:“The Song of Lu

What is the meaning of Lu energy? Entice the opponent toward you by allowing him to advance, lightly and nimbly follow his incoming force without disconnecting and without resisting. When his force reaches its farthest extent, it will naturally become empty. The opponent can then be let go or countered at will. Maintain your central equilibrium and your opponent cannot gain an advantage.”

“If you can entice the opponent to enter and then cause him to fall into emptiness, you may use four ounces to deflect a thousand ponds. If you cannot entice the opponent to enter and then cause him to fall into emptiness, you will not be able to use four ounces to deflect a thousand pounds.”

“When [the opponent] advances, it seems longer and longer; when [the opponent] retreats, it becomes more and more urgent. A feather cannot be added and a fly cannot land. The opponent does not know me, but I know the opponent. A hero has no equal because of all of this.”

“When the opponent is hard and I am soft, it is called yielding. When I follow the opponent and he becomes backed up, it is called sticking.”

“If my opponent does not move, I do not move. If he moves, I arrive first.”

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35 Wins:
8 KO/TKO (23%)
21 SUBMISSIONS (60%)
5 DECISIONS (14%)
1 OTHERS (3%)

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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby everything on Wed May 22, 2019 8:37 am

The thing about this is, it's used in every sport.
I've made people fall down multiple times in football/soccer and I'm nobody.
Just rec level middle aged weekend warrior.
AFAIK, I didn't use any "internal" or taijiquan skill.
this is just a simple feint.
But people wax poetic about it.
This really does seem to be the "we love stories" thing I was just ranting about in the pao chui thread.
I mean the "thing" is already cool, but the "stories" go way overboard.
It's not like taijiquan will turn us all into Muhamad Ali.
but that's what the writings make it sound like.
I mean I love it too but it's totally ridiculous.
Last edited by everything on Wed May 22, 2019 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby middleway on Thu May 23, 2019 3:48 am

Which has to do with training, nothing about feeling wrong.......
He missed, happens....


completely incorrect ... he was made to miss. There is a very important and distinct difference.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby windwalker on Thu May 23, 2019 6:13 am

middleway wrote:
Which has to do with training, nothing about feeling wrong.......
He missed, happens....


completely incorrect ... he was made to miss. There is a very important and distinct difference.



Ya it's called missing the target.
The guy made a mistake and got caught.

Not getting hit, and hitting is part of the game.

.It wasn't that. It was a straight right with a step that was most likely intended to be turned into a grab and takedown, as the opponent has a wrestling background.

Conor was able to set up and time it by making the opponent "feel right" in throwing it—not by "encouraging the opponent to first feel wrong," which can be countered as LaoDan explained.


Yep, exactly
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 23, 2019 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feel Wrong-> Feel Pain->Feel Panic

Postby windwalker on Thu May 23, 2019 6:22 am

Just rec level middle aged weekend warrior.
AFAIK, I didn't use any "internal" or taijiquan skill.
this is just a simple feint.


While true. One may not understand what's involved in the process and still be able to display certain skill sets using principles that some label as internal..

What's called internal is already there, for most people they are unaware of it so it is not developed or used directly.

For those who are aware, internalist the skill-set is developed to very high degree, and used directly.


The problem is one of level, with skilled opponents no matter what label is applied, through training and experience having less errors that can be exploited .

Lots of terminology being tossed around, used and applied to those who may not have any knowledge of it but can do it.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 23, 2019 6:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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