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TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 7:05 am
by oragami_itto
This is something I recently became aware of.

They are currently advertising on social media the need for 3000 people to fill paying jobs teaching Taiji to veterans.

To certify as a teacher you need to take their course and learn their exercises.
http://taijifit.net/about-taijifit-instructor-training/

This is the guy pushing it, and his name seems familiar somehow, I want to say it is a negative association. David Dorian Ross.
https://ymaa.com/publishing/author/david-dorian-ross

Anyhow, just wanted to float this past the community to see what you thought of it, if you knew of him or the program and if it was as scammy seeming to you as it is to me.

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 12:18 am
by Bao
How did they calculate those figures? How many hundreds of instructors have they sign up so far? How much do they get paid? :-\

Maybe I should ask them? :P

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 1:11 am
by Trick
You just pay 99$ a year to be fully licensed, but be sure you guys pass the requirements to be able to be a Taiji-fit family member, the do a criminal background check.....99$ x 3000 (a year) Dorian can lift a good paycheck. Great initiatives should pay off :)

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 2:50 am
by Giles
"Scam" may be a little exaggerated (if one interprets scam as a criminal activity or at least something close to it) but the basic concept is obviously the same old unethical, money-making shtick. Namely recruiting people who often have little or no previous tai chi experience, milking them for online courses and a bare minimum of live teaching contact and then, almost certainly, giving them a teaching certification more or less irrespective of their tai chi and teaching abilities at that point. If they can 'go through the motions' (figuratively and literally) then presumably there's no way they'll flunk the final exam. In the concept description I see nothing to indicate any corresponding examination criteria. And then these people are "qualified" to go and teach others in a healthcare environment, which can also involve aspects such as remediating injuries and (vets) possibly dealing with PTSD.

The claim that the online courses offer "just as much information, education and interaction as one of our live in-person courses" is of course ridiculous. Hands-on correction, probably the most essential form of feedback when learning tai chi...? ::) An online course for people who already bring a decent foundation in tai chi and with the aim of simply furthering the participant's own skills and understanding is defensible as a concept, but this -- no way.

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:48 am
by Bhassler
I took the Tai Chi for Arthritis course once upon a time. The course was designed by Paul Lam and delivered through the Arthritis Foundation. It was the same kind of deal with a weekend certification taught by a PT who probably had just a couple more weekends worth of training than the participants. While it certainly wasn't anything like traditional gongfu, I was in a room of about 30 other people, most of whom were senior citizens who were all students of one random dude in a nearby city who had been teaching the program at a local community center. This "watered down" practice nevertheless had a profound impact on the lives of the participants, both physically and mentally. It's not really my thing, but I won't deny the good that the program has done. Obviously, since the program was offered through the Arthritis Foundation, they seemed to agree.

This program is likely similar in terms of width and depth, but who cares? They seem to be legitimately endorsed by the VA, and at least in the state of Colorado in the good ole' U S of A ('Merica!), getting anything done with the VA is no joke. If that referral network is real and the pay per student is reasonable for what it is, then the program is something that offers real benefit to veterans and an opportunity for teachers to help the community at least without throwing money away to do it.

Not everyone is out to be a d3adly taiji killah, and not every program that makes a person money is necessarily screwing over everybody else to do it.

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 12:24 pm
by Giles
Thanks for the experiences and thoughts, Bhassler. OK, some valid points you're making. Still, my main objection as regards quality in this context is not developing martial skill, naturally, but more about the possibility of messing up people's knees and backs. If people are moving with very poor skeletal alignment and posture, which is usually the case in tai chi when the chain of teaching is so hurried and superficial, then many health benefits are negated and it can even do damage after a while.
Nonetheless, I can see what you mean. If it's a choice for many clients of either staying at home on their couches in social isolation or getting out, doing 'nice' movements and being part of a group, then the second option is better. But still a waste of much greater potential health benefits which could be gained if the teachers have a more solid background. There must surely be enough existing tai practitioners or even instructors around in the US to be recruited to this program and to fulfil a (slightly) higher criterium for ability and experience. (?)

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 1:57 pm
by wayne hansen
[quote="Bhassler"]I took the Tai Chi for Arthritis course once upon a time. The course was designed by Paul Lam and delivered through the Arthritis Foundation. It was the same kind of deal with a weekend certification taught by a PT who probably had just a couple more weekends worth of training than the participants. While it certainly wasn't anything like traditional gongfu, I was in a room of about 30 other people, most of whom were senior citizens who were all students of one random dude in a nearby city who had been teaching the program at a local community center. This "watered down" practice nevertheless had a profound impact on the lives of the participants, both physically and mentally. It's not really my thing, but I won't deny the good that the program has done. Obviously, since the program was offered through the Arthritis Foundation, they seemed to agree.

This program is likely similar in terms of width and depth, but who cares? They seem to be legitimately endorsed by the VA, and at least in the state of Colorado in the good ole' U S of A ('Merica!), getting anything done with the VA is no joke. If that referral network is real and the pay per student is reasonable for what it is, then the program is something that offers real benefit to veterans and an opportunity for teachers to help the community at least without throwing money away to do it.

Not everyone is out to be a d3adly taiji killah, and not every program that makes a person money is necessarily screwing over everybody else to do it.[/quote

I had a class of 20 people ar Byron bay
An older guy in the class was so clumbsy I could only put him with my assistant when doing two man stuff
He was dangerous to others
He went to Sydney for a weekend and came back with a teaching certificate

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:22 pm
by Walk the Torque
One issue I have with this is that they claim students are "never corrected"!

I smell trouble.

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:22 pm
by Subitai
Hmmm...


Quick Facts about David Dorian Ross
https://ymaa.com/publishing/author/david-dorian-ross

Competition medals

Gold medals - 8
Silver medals - 1
Bronze medals - 1

Member: US Wushu Team 1991
US Taijiquan Team 1993
Alternate: US Wushu team 1995
Member: San Francisco Wushu Team (US national champions) 1984-1987
Studied with Professor Men Ka-on and other coaches while at Wu Bin's institute, Beijing 1995
Television programs:

T'ai Chi in Paradise - 13 part series with Hawaii Public Television - 1995
T'ai Chi, Health and Happiness - prime time special for PBS - 2012


So what's the problem? Isn't there enough Tai chi to go around for everyone.

Seriously though...i just quick googled a few vids by David. What makes his teaching any more of a scam (if at all) then some other online teachers out there?

I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M ABOUT TO SAY THIS BUT, "EVEN JAKE MACE IS A BETTER DEMO STUDENT" THEN SOME OF THE HIPPITY HOPPITY ONLINE DEMOS DONE BY CERTAIN GUYS OUT THERE! ;D

TAKE A LOOK AT THIS GEM:


Now we could just get Master Wong to demo on Jake Mace...that would be something.

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 11:00 pm
by Giles
Subitai wrote:TAKE A LOOK AT THIS GEM:


Yes, ho-hum. Just to state the bleeding obvious: some of the 'applications' he shows are OK in themselves but the way he gets to them - bridging, entering, opening the window of opportunity or whatever you want to call it - are breathtakingly non-viable. In most cases he would already be flat on his back, seeing stars.
Nice drone work, though.

Now we could just get Master Wong to demo on Jake Mace...that would be something.

Start an online petition? :D

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 7:10 am
by GrahamB
Those two guys definitely both own George Michael albums.

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 7:15 am
by oragami_itto
Subitai wrote:
So what's the problem? Isn't there enough Tai chi to go around for everyone.

Definitely enough Tai Chi to go around, but this is being specifically marketed as a program for veterans. Though I think more honestly it's a program to certify you to be eligible to teach veterans as a third party provider at your own location and be reimbursed.

Which gives me mixed feelings. I need to learn more about it. He's presenting himself as the only means of achieving that certification and starting to take funds from the VA.


Seriously though...i just quick googled a few vids by David. What makes his teaching any more of a scam (if at all) then some other online teachers out there?

Honestly his marketing and his responses to questions and critics have raised a few red flags for me. He started spamming all over the facebook groups and when someone asked if it was appropriate, he launched into this "OH WHAT ARE YOU SCARED OF, HUH?" type response that I found very tacky.


I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M ABOUT TO SAY THIS BUT, "EVEN JAKE MACE IS A BETTER DEMO STUDENT" THEN SOME OF THE HIPPITY HOPPITY ONLINE DEMOS DONE BY CERTAIN GUYS OUT THERE! ;D

Master Mace is a treasure of American TIE CHEE.

TAKE A LOOK AT THIS GEM:



And that's really all I need to know about the quality of his course material. Though it doesn't answer the intrinsic question of whether he actually does have the hookup for the sweet sweet VA money or not.

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 10:12 am
by everything
I guess we have to ask "quality" for what? For meditation? Relaxation? Lowering blood pressure? Dealing with post traumatic stress? Injury recovery? Flexibility? Fitness? A sort of chair yoga activity? Qigong? Help with ADL? Some kind of martial arts application (doubt it)?

Depending on what the goal/needs of the students are, your answers may vary.

I really agree if someone thinks they have the only answer as a sort of monopoly for a specific "market segment", that raises a lot of flags, though.

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 10:17 am
by windwalker
For those interested
https://www.vacareers.va.gov/Careers/SupportServices/

Highly applaud anyone considering helping whether volunteer or not, in offering services to vets.
Did contact some VA hospitals in my area offering free services, taiji specifically as a movement
program for those interested, maybe as part of a larger rehabilitation effort for those in physical therapy.

For the record dont really feel teaching or using taiji in this way is beneficial for the art. Permotes misconceptions
about taiji not necessarily good for the art itself,,but do understand how it might be useful in some therapeutic protocols. ,

Haven't followed up yet, but if one contacts any VA Hosp they should be able to advise on how to begin the process.

not a fan of what the teacher listed in the thread is trying to do, seems very commercial setting his company or org. as the 3erd party contact for the VA.

Do support any sincere outreach for anyone offering to help
the vets....

Re: TaijiFit with David Dorian Ross

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 10:29 am
by oragami_itto
Recently I've been working with a woman who's been teaching dong style at the VA here for quite some time. I'm actually teaching saber to her students Wednesday evenings.

The VA puts some interesting restrictions in what they allow on campus, no partner work/contact, no weapons, etc. She's built a 1500 sq ft facility on her property to serve as an extended campus and host events. We actually just had our Grand opening with Alex Dong, Yan Dong, and Dong Zhen Chen last month.

Point being she's devoted at least a decade to helping out vets here, all volunteer, and it's something I'm getting a lot out of helping with. This guy might be a legit path to getting compensated for such services but it smells funny to me