Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby edededed on Thu May 30, 2019 5:20 pm

Bao wrote:
edededed wrote:What is bagua silk reeling?


Everything in Bagua is silk-reeling. Or should be.


Bagua has spiral power, but I've never heard of silk reeling in bagua.
If it just means bagua's spiral power, then I see ;)
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3907
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby greytowhite on Fri May 31, 2019 10:25 am

edededed wrote:What is bagua silk reeling? So-called "tea cups" maybe?


How I learned the silk reeling was a different process than the typical teacups. I've seen how some people do it - that's more for our Iron Shirt to power from the root-tip. The silk reeling is similar but has more to do with going from the tip-root. In the Gong style I do the silk reeling aspects are in the Double Butterflies but most instructors just teach the intent and some basic moves as it seems close to being lost. I've also worked on bagua silk reeling with a student of Chris Matsuo's.
User avatar
greytowhite
Huajing
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:33 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby Ron Panunto on Fri May 31, 2019 1:33 pm

The tea cup exercises.
Ron Panunto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 6:33 am
Location: Langhorne, PA, USA

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby Bao on Fri May 31, 2019 11:37 pm

edededed wrote:
Bao wrote:
edededed wrote:What is bagua silk reeling?


Everything in Bagua is silk-reeling. Or should be.


Bagua has spiral power, but I've never heard of silk reeling in bagua.
If it just means bagua's spiral power, then I see ;)


Everything in Bagua is coiling, twisting. When you practice circle walking and changes, there's coiling in the legs, kua, waist, arms. Coordination of coiling movement with and from the Dantian is basic principle. So everything you can possibly do in Bagua is silk-reeling practice. Tea cup exercises have no different body mechanics. Or what do you mean should be different in Bagua basic movements and basic practice from what you practice in silk-reeling exercises?
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7026
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby edededed on Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:25 am

Thanks for the replies!

Greytowhite: Interesting, for iron body, eh? Bagua has a lot of schools and a lot of methods, interesting that you guys have that.

Bao: Yes, lots of coiling and twisting in bagua. It could be a terminology difference - I had only really heard of "silk reeling" in terms of Chen taiji - but I never did Chen, so I guess that I don't really know how it may or may not differ. :)
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3907
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:35 am

Isn’t silk reeling a name/idea for doing the moves in an smooth and unbroken fashion, and doesn’t necessary involve so called coiling and twisting/spiraling ?
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2368
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby Bao on Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:39 am

edededed wrote:Bao: Yes, lots of coiling and twisting in bagua. It could be a terminology difference - I had only really heard of "silk reeling" in terms of Chen taiji - but I never did Chen, so I guess that I don't really know how it may or may not differ. :)


Silk reeling is a term described as coiling, twisting energy in the first Chen Tai Chi classic book. In recent times CXW designed a set of different exercises to practice basic Chen twisting movement that starts from the dantian. The movement itself or the practice is nothing special for Yang Tai Chi, but common in IMA. Exercises in other styles look differently, but the movement itself is more or less identical.

Trick wrote:Isn’t silk reeling a name/idea for doing the moves in an smooth and unbroken fashion, and doesn’t necessary involve so called coiling and twisting/spiraling ?


The Chen Style term "Silk reeling" or actually "twisting silk reeling" is "Chansijin". What you describe is "Chousi", or "pulling silk" which is foremost a Yang and Wu Tai Chi form. The latter doesn't necessarily involve spiralling action, but the first term does.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7026
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:52 am

Ah, its not pulling from the reel but reeling the trend on to the reel.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2368
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:54 am

Thread not trend...Damn this switching back and forth from Swedish to English keyboard 8-)
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2368
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby Ron Panunto on Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:05 am

Trick wrote:Ah, its not pulling from the reel but reeling the trend on to the reel.


Is not Taiji both yin & yang; swallow/spit?
Ron Panunto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 6:33 am
Location: Langhorne, PA, USA

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby greytowhite on Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:04 am

edededed wrote:Thanks for the replies!

Greytowhite: Interesting, for iron body, eh? Bagua has a lot of schools and a lot of methods, interesting that you guys have that.

Bao: Yes, lots of coiling and twisting in bagua. It could be a terminology difference - I had only really heard of "silk reeling" in terms of Chen taiji - but I never did Chen, so I guess that I don't really know how it may or may not differ. :)


I started internals with Chen village style - very limited circles and they don't really talk about how to link the horizontal and vertical much just expect you to get it from practice (some I've talked to claim the good stuff was cut out for non-Chinese, I dunno). I met up with some Practical Method guys and theirs goes directly to 3D with application intent. I've found the bagua stuff I'm working with very much 3D and environment focused as well.

In the Gong style Lion Plays with Ball and partnered Five Elements with body striking is the main iron body practice and manifests in Hexagram 43. The other line I learned iron body stuff from is Dragongate Sanctuary's Cheng bagua. Their 5 Element Iron Cloth practice is basically just cycling through the 8 basic palms in a post-heaven pattern with some of the hand shapes sacrificed to the cyclical flow. It seems like there was a lot of xingyi concepts integrated into that line of Cheng.
User avatar
greytowhite
Huajing
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:33 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby robert on Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:37 am

Trick wrote:Ah, its not pulling from the reel but reeling the thread on to the reel.

It depends on your view point. You can pull silk from the cocoons or wrap it around the reel - reel it. Either way if you've seen what is involved in setting up the silk and the reel you don't want the silk to break - you want it to be continuous.

Chen Xin wrote:The masters of Taiji boxing created a system called Chan-si jing or the silk reeling method of the energy regeneration to move Qian and Kun silently without breaking, in such a way that the coiling threads or spiral-like lines arrange vital energy flow thoughout the body. On hearing this, people of the boxing world exclaimed, “How marvelous!”


Chen Xin uses two terms.
缠丝精 Chan si jing - chan (to wind around / to wrap round / to coil / tangle / to involve / to bother / to annoy)
si (silk / thread / trace / (cuisine) shreds or julienne strips)
jing (essence / extract / vitality / energy / semen / sperm / mythical goblin spirit / highly perfected / elite / the pick of sth / proficient (refined ability) / extremely (fine) / selected rice (archaic))

缠丝劲 Chan si jin - jin (strength / energy / enthusiasm / spirit / mood / expression / interest )

The idea is that you don't want any breaks in the jin - you want the jin to be continuous.

In YCF's 10 essentials of taijiquan (from Chen Weiming)
九相連不斷
9. THE MOVEMENTS ARE LINKED TOGETHER WITHOUT INTERRUPTION

外家拳術。其勁乃後天之拙勁。故有起有止。有續有斷。舊力已盡。新力未生。此時最易為人所乘。太極用意不用力。自始至終。綿綿不斷。周而復始。循環無窮。原論所謂如長江大河。滔滔不絕。又曰運勁如抽絲。皆言其貫串一氣也。
In external styles of boxing arts, their strength is only the clumsy strength of acquired habit. Therefore there is a start and a stop, a continuing and an interrupting. It is when old force is spent and new force is not yet initiated that is the easiest moment for an opponent to take advantage of. Taiji uses intention, not exertion, and so from beginning to end, it is continuous without interruption, recycling endlessly. A primary text [Essays, part 1] says: “It is like a long river flowing into the wide ocean, on and on ceaselessly.” It is also said [in Understanding How to Practice]: “Move energy (勁 jin) as if drawing silk.” These words describe a continuous flow throughout.

The character used is jin (勁), so again the jin should not break, it should be continuous.

The idea that jin is continuous seems to be a defining characteristic of taiji, but I don't know if it is applicable to xinyi, xingyi, bagua, and yiquan. Are they allowed to have breaks or gaps in their jin?
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Huajing
 
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby Greg J on Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:39 pm

I generally try to train around an injury, i.e., figure out what I can do to stay active and moving in ways that will not negatively impact the injured area...so for example, with a recent knee injury I worked power shots with a stick to a tire with stationary footwork; did lots of KB swinging and staff work (again, minimizing the footwork). I also try to do things that will promote healing: accupuncture; use of dit da jao, tendon jao, and tiger balm; supplementing with turmeric and use of NSAID's as needed (but I really try to avoid NSAID's as much as possible), and getting at least 7.5 hours of sleep a night (tough, but I notice a huge difference in my mental and physical well being when I fall below 7 hrs a night). Finally, I try to practice yoga a few times a week for at least 20 minutes a time, and meditate every day for 20-30 minutes.

Best,
Greg
Last edited by Greg J on Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Greg J
Huajing
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:59 pm

Re: Small tweaks and tai chi form or similar

Postby everything on Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:02 pm

hmm I've never tried those balms, and I could do way better on sleep.

what's working best for me at the moment is 1. wearing nice, cushioned sandals indoors 2. using a toe separator 3. using ice 4. cutting back on sports 5. self massage of my foot 6. temporarily walking with lack of intensity (this one is of course a bit concerning because of changing gait around an injury possibly causing other issues) 7. some simple qigong

what's not good: sitting and driving for a long time - for some weird reason driving is bad for my metatarsal.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4958
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Previous

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: greytowhite and 1 guest