the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Bao wrote:

edededed wrote:What is bagua silk reeling?

Everything in Bagua is silk-reeling. Or should be.

Bagua has spiral power, but I've never heard of silk reeling in bagua.
If it just means bagua's spiral power, then I see

edededed wrote:What is bagua silk reeling? So-called "tea cups" maybe?

How I learned the silk reeling was a different process than the typical teacups. I've seen how some people do it - that's more for our Iron Shirt to power from the root-tip. The silk reeling is similar but has more to do with going from the tip-root. In the Gong style I do the silk reeling aspects are in the Double Butterflies but most instructors just teach the intent and some basic moves as it seems close to being lost. I've also worked on bagua silk reeling with a student of Chris Matsuo's.

The tea cup exercises.

edededed wrote:

Bao wrote:

edededed wrote:What is bagua silk reeling?

Everything in Bagua is silk-reeling. Or should be.

Bagua has spiral power, but I've never heard of silk reeling in bagua.
If it just means bagua's spiral power, then I see

Everything in Bagua is coiling, twisting. When you practice circle walking and changes, there's coiling in the legs, kua, waist, arms. Coordination of coiling movement with and from the Dantian is basic principle. So everything you can possibly do in Bagua is silk-reeling practice. Tea cup exercises have no different body mechanics. Or what do you mean should be different in Bagua basic movements and basic practice from what you practice in silk-reeling exercises?

Thanks for the replies!

Greytowhite: Interesting, for iron body, eh? Bagua has a lot of schools and a lot of methods, interesting that you guys have that.

Bao: Yes, lots of coiling and twisting in bagua. It could be a terminology difference - I had only really heard of "silk reeling" in terms of Chen taiji - but I never did Chen, so I guess that I don't really know how it may or may not differ.

Isn’t silk reeling a name/idea for doing the moves in an smooth and unbroken fashion, and doesn’t necessary involve so called coiling and twisting/spiraling ?

edededed wrote:Bao: Yes, lots of coiling and twisting in bagua. It could be a terminology difference - I had only really heard of "silk reeling" in terms of Chen taiji - but I never did Chen, so I guess that I don't really know how it may or may not differ.

Silk reeling is a term described as coiling, twisting energy in the first Chen Tai Chi classic book. In recent times CXW designed a set of different exercises to practice basic Chen twisting movement that starts from the dantian. The movement itself or the practice is nothing special for Yang Tai Chi, but common in IMA. Exercises in other styles look differently, but the movement itself is more or less identical.

Trick wrote:Isn’t silk reeling a name/idea for doing the moves in an smooth and unbroken fashion, and doesn’t necessary involve so called coiling and twisting/spiraling ?

The Chen Style term "Silk reeling" or actually "twisting silk reeling" is "Chansijin". What you describe is "Chousi", or "pulling silk" which is foremost a Yang and Wu Tai Chi form. The latter doesn't necessarily involve spiralling action, but the first term does.

Ah, its not pulling from the reel but reeling the trend on to the reel.

Thread not trend...Damn this switching back and forth from Swedish to English keyboard

Trick wrote:Ah, its not pulling from the reel but reeling the trend on to the reel.

Is not Taiji both yin & yang; swallow/spit?

edededed wrote:Thanks for the replies!

Greytowhite: Interesting, for iron body, eh? Bagua has a lot of schools and a lot of methods, interesting that you guys have that.

Bao: Yes, lots of coiling and twisting in bagua. It could be a terminology difference - I had only really heard of "silk reeling" in terms of Chen taiji - but I never did Chen, so I guess that I don't really know how it may or may not differ.

I started internals with Chen village style - very limited circles and they don't really talk about how to link the horizontal and vertical much just expect you to get it from practice (some I've talked to claim the good stuff was cut out for non-Chinese, I dunno). I met up with some Practical Method guys and theirs goes directly to 3D with application intent. I've found the bagua stuff I'm working with very much 3D and environment focused as well.

In the Gong style Lion Plays with Ball and partnered Five Elements with body striking is the main iron body practice and manifests in Hexagram 43. The other line I learned iron body stuff from is Dragongate Sanctuary's Cheng bagua. Their 5 Element Iron Cloth practice is basically just cycling through the 8 basic palms in a post-heaven pattern with some of the hand shapes sacrificed to the cyclical flow. It seems like there was a lot of xingyi concepts integrated into that line of Cheng.

Trick wrote:Ah, its not pulling from the reel but reeling the thread on to the reel.

It depends on your view point. You can pull silk from the cocoons or wrap it around the reel - reel it. Either way if you've seen what is involved in setting up the silk and the reel you don't want the silk to break - you want it to be continuous.

Chen Xin wrote:The masters of Taiji boxing created a system called Chan-si jing or the silk reeling method of the energy regeneration to move Qian and Kun silently without breaking, in such a way that the coiling threads or spiral-like lines arrange vital energy flow thoughout the body. On hearing this, people of the boxing world exclaimed, “How marvelous!”

Chen Xin uses two terms.
缠丝精 Chan si jing - chan (to wind around / to wrap round / to coil / tangle / to involve / to bother / to annoy)
si (silk / thread / trace / (cuisine) shreds or julienne strips)
jing (essence / extract / vitality / energy / semen / sperm / mythical goblin spirit / highly perfected / elite / the pick of sth / proficient (refined ability) / extremely (fine) / selected rice (archaic))

缠丝劲 Chan si jin - jin (strength / energy / enthusiasm / spirit / mood / expression / interest )

The idea is that you don't want any breaks in the jin - you want the jin to be continuous.

In YCF's 10 essentials of taijiquan (from Chen Weiming)
九相連不斷
9. THE MOVEMENTS ARE LINKED TOGETHER WITHOUT INTERRUPTION

外家拳術。其勁乃後天之拙勁。故有起有止。有續有斷。舊力已盡。新力未生。此時最易為人所乘。太極用意不用力。自始至終。綿綿不斷。周而復始。循環無窮。原論所謂如長江大河。滔滔不絕。又曰運勁如抽絲。皆言其貫串一氣也。
In external styles of boxing arts, their strength is only the clumsy strength of acquired habit. Therefore there is a start and a stop, a continuing and an interrupting. It is when old force is spent and new force is not yet initiated that is the easiest moment for an opponent to take advantage of. Taiji uses intention, not exertion, and so from beginning to end, it is continuous without interruption, recycling endlessly. A primary text [Essays, part 1] says: “It is like a long river flowing into the wide ocean, on and on ceaselessly.” It is also said [in Understanding How to Practice]: “Move energy (勁 jin) as if drawing silk.” These words describe a continuous flow throughout.

The character used is jin (勁), so again the jin should not break, it should be continuous.

The idea that jin is continuous seems to be a defining characteristic of taiji, but I don't know if it is applicable to xinyi, xingyi, bagua, and yiquan. Are they allowed to have breaks or gaps in their jin?

I generally try to train around an injury, i.e., figure out what I can do to stay active and moving in ways that will not negatively impact the injured area...so for example, with a recent knee injury I worked power shots with a stick to a tire with stationary footwork; did lots of KB swinging and staff work (again, minimizing the footwork). I also try to do things that will promote healing: accupuncture; use of dit da jao, tendon jao, and tiger balm; supplementing with turmeric and use of NSAID's as needed (but I really try to avoid NSAID's as much as possible), and getting at least 7.5 hours of sleep a night (tough, but I notice a huge difference in my mental and physical well being when I fall below 7 hrs a night). Finally, I try to practice yoga a few times a week for at least 20 minutes a time, and meditate every day for 20-30 minutes.

Best,
Greg

hmm I've never tried those balms, and I could do way better on sleep.

what's working best for me at the moment is 1. wearing nice, cushioned sandals indoors 2. using a toe separator 3. using ice 4. cutting back on sports 5. self massage of my foot 6. temporarily walking with lack of intensity (this one is of course a bit concerning because of changing gait around an injury possibly causing other issues) 7. some simple qigong

what's not good: sitting and driving for a long time - for some weird reason driving is bad for my metatarsal.