Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:58 am

Yes coming from tang shou Tao there are no questions,it is all practical and it all works
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby everything on Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:22 pm

Does the system still survive?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby robert on Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:00 pm

In the states first and second generation students of Xu Hongji include Mike Patterson, Mike Bingo, and Vince Black. I think Tom Bisio is third generation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsu_Hung-chi
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby gzregorz on Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:37 pm

I haven't read the whole thread but I will.

But I would like to respond to the question of what is push hands good for.

In China my push hands practice and understanding went deep. When I came back to the United Snakes I was disappointed at the competition style push hands since it was basically a form of wrestling for people who didn't want to wrestle.

I would often let people stay front weighted and get their shoves in and as I got bored I would start tossing them around since this is what you would do in a real situation. Needless to say I stopped doing the 3 hour commutes to do push hands especially since the kids started to arrive and I was basically poor.

I still love push hands but it seems that competition push hands has ruined it. I even pushed around some of the best in bay but crowds would form so I would let the old man win so he didn't lose face in a spot he's been in for years.

For me there's no return on competition push hands unless you are looking to build a fan base I suppose. What I can say is that as a delivery driver who often lifts, moves and carries 100 pound packages that push hands has given me a deep awareness of what is happening in my body and alignments.

I even move a 500 pound water barrel in my car to water my plants and fruit trees using my body and correct alignments. So to answer the question push hands gives one an awareness of what is happening in their bodies and alignments which is what taiji is all about but this may or may not translate to kicking ass but then again the same could be said for a lot of things in martial arts.

I know people who own lots of guns and have been beaten up in public. Turns out that having an arsenal at home didn't help them either.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby everything on Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:40 pm

"Art" or fun is a worthwhile pursuit. "Practical use" - there are too many what-ifs, etc. If you treat your skills as just another emergency preparedness type of skill you want to never use (like CPR), it's better.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Bao on Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:57 am

"Practical use" - there are too many what-ifs, etc.


Agree that if there are many "what ifs", you might need to re-evaluate what you do. :P

My simple opinon is that the most basic skills as timing, distance & angle as well as, how to "follow and fill in the gaps", are far more important than learning hundreds of tricks and techniques. With good practice you will learn how to adapt to the situation without the need to think or figure out how to respond to what. And what gzregorz said, it leads to good body use in general.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:29 am

I agree with the above 3 posts
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:34 am

Just saw the post asking if Tang Shou Tao still survives
Yes both the Hsu and Huang branches still have people out there but as an organisation it seems to have declined
There is one school in Taipei that is strongly into mma
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:57 am

wayne hansen wrote:Just saw the post asking if Tang Shou Tao still survives
Yes both the Hsu and Huang branches still have people out there but as an organisation it seems to have declined
There is one school in Taipei that is strongly into mma

This may be the Tang Shou Tao school you're speaking of. They're into "Xing Yi Quan sparring" (not necessarily MMA?).

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnFLfFSjkBw

Excerpt from "XINGYI, BAGUA, TAIJI:"
Tim Cartmell wrote:So here’s the thing: I’m not criticising traditional martial arts at all, I’m criticising the training methodology you’ll commonly see. If you came to practice BJJ and all you did was lay there on the floor passively and worked through submissions cooperatively for 10 years, you couldn’t fight anybody. It’s not like BJJ is magic, no, it’s the training methodology that makes it work. When I did Xingyiquan in Taiwan with Xu Hongji and his son, we did an hour and a half of hard conditioning, hundreds of push ups, hundreds of sit ups, all kinds of conditioning, then we’d stand and do forms, then we’d do techniques and spar in every single class.

Some of the sparring drills probably came from their judo training, because we did a lot of gripping and throwing, but because it was a fight school we practised sparring all the time. We’d light spar without gear, heavy spar with gear on, do padwork and use then use those skills in the ring.

A lot of martial arts might work, but they won’t work if you don’t practice them for real. Even if every single technique has been vetted by some master, you still have to try it for yourself. What I can do under pressure with my body type and my speed, power and level of technical proficiency might not be what you can do. You can’t take those things on faith. When you’re sparring all the time, all bullshit gets weeded out. You’re not going to practice anything that doesn’t work, it’s just a waste of time. How do you know if something’s going to work? Well, you try it in the ring, or when you spar.

You can take any traditional martial art, but you’ve got to spar, but you’ve got to do it correctly. There’s no art that includes practical, useable techniques that’s too deadly to spar with. Is every technique in your art absolutely deadly? The answer is no, so why can’t you take the practical techniques and use them against a resisting opponent?
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:28 pm

Yes that is the school and I am pretty sure they fight MMA
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby grzegorz on Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:53 am

wayne hansen wrote:Just saw the post asking if Tang Shou Tao still survives
Yes both the Hsu and Huang branches still have people out there but as an organisation it seems to have declined
There is one school in Taipei that is strongly into mma


As one who has trained MMA, BJJ and boxing for years I suppose I shouldn't be surprised but I have to admit that I am disappointed to see traditional schools switch to MMA.

In real fighting I never think in terms of MMA but traditional CMA with or without a knife.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby grzegorz on Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:27 am

FWIW, MMA also attracts lots of athletes whose interest in martial arts is only about competition. Point being that I think MMA builds fighters in part because it attracts highly competitive athletic people and those who don't fit into that mold will probably discontinue at some point.
Last edited by grzegorz on Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:38 am

grzegorz wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Just saw the post asking if Tang Shou Tao still survives
Yes both the Hsu and Huang branches still have people out there but as an organisation it seems to have declined
There is one school in Taipei that is strongly into mma


As one who has trained MMA, BJJ and boxing for years I suppose I shouldn't be surprised but I have to admit that I am disappointed to see traditional schools switch to MMA.

In real fighting I never think in terms of MMA but traditional CMA with or without a knife.

You may be misinterpreting them. They did not "switch to MMA." They are doing "Xing yi sparring," as Tim Cartmell explains it. As part of their aliveness training, they spar or may enter MMA competitions. In training for real fighting, they think in terms of aliveness (e.g., energy, movement, timing, etc.). Who's to say "traditional CMA" did not spar or compete (lei tai)?

grzegorz wrote:FWIW, MMA also attracts lots of athletes whose interest in arts is only about competition. Point being that I think MMA builds fighters in part because it attracts highly competitive athletic people and those who don't fit into that mold will probably discontinue at some point.

MMA attracts lots of people whose interests are learning to defend themselves against non-compliant opponents which the martial arts were designed for. Most of the time MMA is spent training, not sparring or competing. MMA gyms are often referred to as teams, as they work together to become better martial artists.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:06 am

Do they train to defend themselves or do they train to hurt their opponent?

The simplest form of self defense is avoiding fights, MMA fighter construct their entire lives around seeking fights out. At least they should if they expect to have a chance on making a living at it.

I don't believe defense is the first priority. Overcoming an opponent by dealing damage is what they train for.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby grzegorz on Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:36 pm

marvin8 wrote:
grzegorz wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Just saw the post asking if Tang Shou Tao still survives
Yes both the Hsu and Huang branches still have people out there but as an organisation it seems to have declined
There is one school in Taipei that is strongly into mma


As one who has trained MMA, BJJ and boxing for years I suppose I shouldn't be surprised but I have to admit that I am disappointed to see traditional schools switch to MMA.

In real fighting I never think in terms of MMA but traditional CMA with or without a knife.

You may be misinterpreting them. They did not "switch to MMA." They are doing "Xing yi sparring," as Tim Cartmell explains it. As part of their aliveness training, they spar or may enter MMA competitions. In training for real fighting, they think in terms of aliveness (e.g., energy, movement, timing, etc.). Who's to say "traditional CMA" did not spar or compete (lei tai)?

grzegorz wrote:FWIW, MMA also attracts lots of athletes whose interest in arts is only about competition. Point being that I think MMA builds fighters in part because it attracts highly competitive athletic people and those who don't fit into that mold will probably discontinue at some point.

MMA attracts lots of people whose interests are learning to defend themselves against non-compliant opponents which the martial arts were designed for. Most of the time MMA is spent training, not sparring or competing. MMA gyms are often referred to as teams, as they work together to become better martial artists.


Yes Marvin, I know about those and these things and Tim. I first started training with Ralph Gracie during the first few UFCs in the nineties. I have seen the MMA scene change and evolve. Personally I think that original form of BJJ in nineties was mich more street based but whatever.

My point is people can train however they like as I do but being that where I live there are 5 MMA gyms within walking distance of my house I hope someone keeps some traditions alive. With my job and work unfortunately I cannot.

When I left Shanghai MMA/BJJ gyms started popping up and I am sure they are thriving.
Last edited by grzegorz on Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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