Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:15 pm

grzegorz wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
grzegorz wrote:As one who has trained MMA, BJJ and boxing for years I suppose I shouldn't be surprised but I have to admit that I am disappointed to see traditional schools switch to MMA.

In real fighting I never think in terms of MMA but traditional CMA with or without a knife.

You may be misinterpreting them. They did not "switch to MMA." They are doing "Xing yi sparring," as Tim Cartmell explains it. As part of their aliveness training, they spar or may enter MMA competitions. In training for real fighting, they think in terms of aliveness (e.g., energy, movement, timing, etc.). Who's to say "traditional CMA" did not spar or compete (lei tai)?

grzegorz wrote:FWIW, MMA also attracts lots of athletes whose interest in arts is only about competition. Point being that I think MMA builds fighters in part because it attracts highly competitive athletic people and those who don't fit into that mold will probably discontinue at some point.

MMA attracts lots of people whose interests are learning to defend themselves against non-compliant opponents which the martial arts were designed for. Most of the time MMA is spent training, not sparring or competing. MMA gyms are often referred to as teams, as they work together to become better martial artists.


Yes Marvin, I know about those and these things and Tim. I first started training with Ralph Gracie during the first few UFCs in the nineties. I have seen the MMA scene change and evolve. Personally I think that original form of BJJ in nineties was mich more street based but whatever.

In order to continue to compete successfully in MMA, BJJ fighters had to improve and expand their entering skills (e.g., punches, kicks, wrestling, etc.). However, I don't see how the evolution of MMA effects how TCMA trains if sparring has always been a part of it's curriculum.

grzegorz wrote:My point is people can train however they like as I do but being that where I live there are 5 MMA gyms within walking distance of my house I hope someone keeps some traditions alive. With my job and work unfortunately I cannot.

When I left Shanghai MMA/BJJ gyms started popping up and I am sure they are thriving.

Just as Bruce Lee brought awareness to wing chun and martial arts, the UFC increased awareness to MMA and created an industry where people could earn a living fighting, teaching, reporting, promoting, etc.

The popularity of MMA may bring more eyes to TMA schools. But to stay alive, it is up to TMAs to provide the benefits of training MAs people are seeking.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:09 pm

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... -hACZK5svy



They are still doing all the traditional stuff
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby grzegorz on Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:29 pm

Marvin,

We can agree to disgree.

As someone who has seen both sides I am still convinced that BJJ and MMA being more of a sport is what keeps people coming back and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I am not convinced that MMA is the end all be all of marital arts it is worth mentoring that some even question how much Bruce Lee actually knew WC but that is a discussuon for another day.

Again do what you wish and train as you wish. I just don't see the need to make an intellectual argument out of how and why one trains that they train. I wasn't doing BJJ because I thought I could kick some ass one day I did it because I simply enjoyed doing it.

Unfortunately now I only wrestle packages some over a hundred pounds and a 500 pound water barrels. In these situations push hands is what has allows me to do this for 12 hours a day without wrecking my body and not BJJ although judo has helped me too.

Good times, I said what I wanted to say feel free to have the final thought.
Last edited by grzegorz on Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:47 pm

grzegorz wrote:Marvin,

We can agree to disgree.

As someone who has seen both sides I am still convinced that BJJ and MMA being more of a sport is what keeps people coming back and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I am not convinced that MMA is the end all be all of marital arts it is worth mentoring that some even question how much Bruce Lee actually knew WC but that is a discussuon for another day.

Again do what you wish and train as you wish. I just don't see the need to make an intellectual argument out of how and why one trains that they train. I wasn't doing BJJ because I thought I could kick some ass one day I did it because I simply enjoyed doing it.

I did not make an argument. You're bringing up arguments I never made. In my last post, I highlighted some of your words in red and commented on them, not knowing exactly why you brought up MMA.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Walk the Torque on Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:27 pm

GrahamB wrote:Now that's a good question!

I think the answer is multifaceted.

Here are a few thoughts off the top of my head, not necessarily in any, or the right, order, or comprehensive:

1) Range:

People tend to do push hands at the wrong range. I think the 'combat' benefits of training push hands disappear almost entirely when you are too far out. I notice when I train it with people they keep wanting to edge back - you need to be comfortable closer in.

I would say this was too far away, meaning you can posturally get away with a lot of stuff:

Image

I would say this is almost too deep requiring much larger stances than you would use in fighting (although that's a great way to train your legs -so it's not 'wrong' in that sense).

Image

My preference is our toes match the opponent's heels. Fist width apart to allow for 'shin biting'. (lots of people do this distance, but go shoulder width apart - leaving the groin too open to be practical/no knee fighting - again, that's my opinion).

2) Delusion:

Chinese martial art people in general I think spend too long in these double or single 'arm contacted' type positions - in more sparring sessions these moments happen in split seconds. People don't stay like that. If you end up putting your arms out looking for that position you get punched on the nose. I think too much of it breeds bad habits. You're doing that 'safe' training to learn skills that are hard to acquire, which then get used in freer environments, rather than try to mimic the 'safe' environment in freer training.


3) You don't need push hands to fight

Worth saying, even though its kind of obvious. Combat sports turn out accomplished fighters quickly without these 'in contact' methods.

4) Jin

One of the 'points' of push hands (i.e. to answer the OP) - what it's 'good' for is to learn to use Jin not Li. For a short answer of what that means, I mean using the ground strength in your movement (jin), not local strength (li). It's easy to fool yourself that you're 'doing it' when you perform a Tai Chi form, because there's nobody else there. Can you 'do it' when somebody is providing some light resistance? Or trying to 'do it' back to you? Push hands enables you to find out. I wish people would view push hands as a tool for learning that, not as a competitive sport of limited wrestling. It's like people have been given a knife, but they insist on using it like a spoon.

5) Applications

You can practice all the applications in a Tai Chi form in push hands - it's one step up from doing them as stand alone techniques because it requires more timing, flow and 'listening'.

6) Range II - the check hook.

If you look at MMA (sorry to use that if it rubs people up the wrong way, but it's here, and provides brilliant examples and feedback of the dynamics of two people in a violent encounter) one of the big, high percentage, often fight ending, techniques is the counter left (or right) hook. The check hook. This is after the fighter throws a jab you move back (or slip) and throw your hook over the top - that's the range push hands is working in, and a good practical example of what skill at that range can mean.

7) Strategy

Tai Chi as a martial art has an objective and a strategy. Through push hands (the tactics) we can understand the strategy.

Read Jocko Wilnick: Every mission has objectives, strategy and tactics.

8) 5 keywords of push hands (strategy):

Listen, stick, yield, neautralise, attack.


Great post Graham.

I'm not too sure that there is a "too close" distance for push hands if you count body sticking/close in throws, but everything else was good to read.

cheers
Konn
Last edited by Walk the Torque on Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby formlessfighter on Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:06 pm

with regards to the fixed step push hands exercises in Tai Chi Chuan training (single push hands, double push hands, etc...) I have found some online resources that may shed some insight into these practices. What they are, why they are, what they are good for, etc...



Last edited by formlessfighter on Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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