Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby everything on Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:12 pm

I really like your guard inventions.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:34 pm

Giles wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:When you find freestyle pushing within the set exercises you find a treasure
Don't sell the set exercises short
The problem is most people don't do them correctly and just go along with their partner
GST is the prime example of this
When the hand comes over the top and pulls press to the side it is an error
It should be the bottom hand that pours press into emptiness
But how many do this
Saying that I agree freestyle should be there very early
However it must be right freestyle not bull at a gate mindless butting


This, this, this!
Not sure what "GST" means, Wayne, but I guess you mean the Cheng Man-Ching tuishou exercise of Si Zheng Tui/ Four Technique Push?
"It should be the bottom hand that pours press into emptiness". And the bottom hand is just a sensing and transmitting organ at this moment, it's the waist and chest that are turning and melting away to create the emptiness, giving the other person the message "Yes, here I am, you've got me, the target is just centimetres away, go for it! Oh, seems I wasn't there after all. Let me help you back up onto your feet."



Yes that is the exercise I meant
The use of the waist goes without saying
It is not about making yourself a target that is what all combat is about
Press is a response to the elbow being attacked with roll back
The hand emptying out press is using ward off and that is why the bottom hand and not the top hand pulling across as most people use


All the stuff about leg attacks weather it is attacking with your legs or attacking his is just part of the game
In pushing either only works when your skill is higher than your partners or when circumstances present it naturally
Last edited by wayne hansen on Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:12 pm

Tim Cartmell interview in which he mentions push hands and "X training."

whistlekick
Published on Dec 17, 2018

Mr. Tim Cartmell is a martial arts practitioner and instructor at the ACE Jiu-Jitsu in Orange County, California:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7ZqjFVc280

Excerpt from "Show Transcript:"
whistlekick MA Radio on December 17, 2018 wrote:Jeremy Lesniak:

(At 21:06) . . . So when you talk about, you know, that old-school level of training that you experienced from these great masters on Mainland China, what would that look like to the rest of us? What would we see?

Tim Cartmell:

Well first of all, we have a lot of time, you know? When I was in Asia, I worked enough to make ends meet but I train a lot, hours and hours a day because that’s what I was there for. So one of the things is the sheer volume of time that they put in. So nowadays, I mean, you’d have to be a career martial artist or a professional combat sport athlete, I think, to have that much time. So it’s not really fair actually to compare, you know, like if you do martial arts as a hobby and even if you train, you know, four or five days a week for an hour or two, you can’t compare it. Because these guys just… and I did as well at the time, you know, we trained hours a day. We trained, you know, up to six hours sometimes a day. So that’s one thing. Now obviously if you have a method and your stuff is legit, if you train that much, you’re gonna get good at it, you know. And if you have a lot of talent, you’re gonna get really good at it. So one thing is people have to understand is, they have a lot of time; they were training a lot. So the traditional training that I did with them, from the internal perspective, there’s a lot of emphasis to put on specific ways to kind of cultivate and generate power. So there’s a lot of emphasis put on your alignment, kind of your structure of alignment, your posture, you know, how you old your body and certain movement patterns. So there’s a lot of standing in the beginning, you know, holding different zhan zhuang positions in Chinese, like holding different positions; a lot of it. We do quite a bit of that, and it’s torture, actually. In all honesty, too, I’m not really sure if standing as long as we did is even necessary. Maybe it’s partly just mental, I feel. Because you know, it’s a grueling thing to stand in these positions for so long. So that was part of it – a big part. And then, you know, endless repetitions of basic movements was another big thing, so not very exciting at first. But it ingrains these movement patterns so they become fundamentally first nature. And then, you know, you go on from there and then forms – practicing traditional forms – then you take the technique out of the form. And the one thing they have that I feel would be a benefit to a lot of combat sport athletes is you can kind of breakdown martial training. You have solo training, obviously, so you gotta condition; do your forms, do whatever your strength training, all that kind of stuff, and then there’s training with a partner. So training with a partner can range from doing cooperative technique training all the way to full-contact sparring. And I find now, what I see in a lot of schools, a lot of academies, traditional as well, there’s not enough time spent in what I call like the mid-range of training so what you’ll get is… for example, a lot of say a Jiu Jitsu class, which have limited time, you’ll teach a student a technique and they’ll practice it on each other with absolutely no resistance. So you know, say you learned how to do some kind of joint lock and you’ll practice it, I’ll practice it. We’ll go back and forth till we get the idea, you know, maybe learn a couple of techniques, and then bam, you’re sparring. And then it’s 100% resistance right off the bat. So I feel if there’s time constraints, that’s really the only logical way to go. But if you have a little more time or you can schedule a time better, one of the training methods that we did – traditional training methods – they have between the not the completely compliant training and the 100% non-compliant, full sparring training. In between that, there’s various training methods and levels of force that we did a lot. And I feel like this is a missing link in a lot of people’s training. For example, you know, everyone knows in Tai Chi have things like pushing hands, right? So pushing hands is an example that everyone would know. It’s not completely cooperative but there’s parameters. You’re basically testing each other’s sensitivity and balance and you know, your frame and power. But since it’s not full-contact, no one’s getting hit or throwing down hard. You’re a little calmer and you have more time to, you know, focus on certain variables, such sensitivity. So that would be an example. Of course you have to go beyond that. If you’re in a martial art and you want to fight and you never practiced really fighting, you’re not gonna be very good it. It’s like any other endeavor. You gotta approximate your event as closely as possible. But there’s different ways to train to get there, right? So that would be one example. Or there’s different levels of sparring. So sometimes, when I practice Xing Yi Quan in the school, we would have drills like, you know, I’m only allowed to punch, you’re only allowed to throw. So you’ve got to be able to defend yourself and take me down without hitting me, and I have to practice hitting you and and not let you take me down, or maybe I can only kick and you can only punch. So these things are kind of intermediate — not completely cooperative, not completely full sparring — but more rules but they force you to work on variables you might not work on. For example, if I really like to punch, you know, and every time we spar full-contact, I’ll just try to punch you, right? So my grappling is lacking. So I’m forced to work on my grappling. When you say, okay all you can do is grapple, he’s gonna punch you, that kind of thing. When I practiced in internally there was a long or quite a big range of these practices, and I feel like they really maximized the training time. So that was a big part of the training, like different levels of these drills. Or you know, it Jiu Jitsu, it has its counterpart. You might just drill a position or you might drill where, you know, no matter when you were sparring but all I’m allowed to do is arm-bar. So these kinds of drills, I feel should be practiced. This should be most of the partner training. And then, you know, full-contact, 100% sparring needs to be done but maybe not as much as some schools do it. You know, maybe some of these intermediate drills would be with help then improved a little bit quicker. So that was traditional training. And not that modern training doesn’t have that kind of thing but you know, that’s where I was first introduced to it. So a lot of alignment work, a lot of basics, a lot of holding positions, a lot of repetitive single movements, a lot of form repetition, and then drilling techniques, drilling techniques, and then these other practices. So that’s basically how it went. And then, you know, like I said, my school expected you to fight, you know, go and fight like go and compete, that’s it.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Right on. I do want to speak a little bit to what you brought up with the transition, the often rapid transition from very light, we’ll say slow or no resistance in partner techniques, and then taking the largely into free sparring and often heavier sparring, you know, heavier contact. And it’s true. I see a lot of schools that don’t have that transitional work, and I was lucky enough that I grew up with some of that and anyone that has had me come to their class from teaching anything combat, really, that’s actually where we spend most of our time. And I just want to point out and I’m fairly certain you’ll agree but because it’s an important concept; it is the lack of this training in that middle space that holds people back. Because what do we tend to do if we’re put in… The more intense the situation, the more likely we are to fall back on the things we’re most comfortable with. And that doesn’t give people the opportunity to improve the things that they’re just kind of figuring out. If you’re throwing a kick at their head at anything approaching at high velocity or power they’re not gonna be experimenting with the technique that they just learned 20 minutes ago.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:55 pm

"Q&A with Master Chen Bing:"

moving stillness on 2017-06-01 wrote:Master Chen Bing is a descendant of the Chen family that developed Taijiquan in Chenjiagou. At the age of six he started learning the family art from his uncles Chen Xiaowang and Chen Xiaoxing. . . .

Traces of Bamboo Rice Bowl: How good is Chen Style Taijiquan in combat? Can you guys compete with MMA fighters and win?

Chen Bing: Dear Traces of Bamboo Rice Bowl, Chen Taiji is fairly well known for its combat applications. Whether it could overtake MMA fighters depends on the game rules. Under MMA rules, taijiquan no doubt has a bigger chance of losing; under taiji sparring rules, MMA could also have an advantage of “fighting the long with the short”. Losing is not a big deal, one can always reflect and refine [their skills]. Throughout history which martial art has not lost once?

New Beginning: Taijiquan, dare to take on a supermatch with Sanda?

Chen Bing: Greetings New Beginning! Are you just curious, or do you have some particularly fascinating ideas? Sanda originated from traditional wushu but exceeds folk martial arts in many aspects including training methods, intensity, practical combat applications, body recovery, nutrition, as well as selection of athletes. Though related, there are many differences [between taijiquan and sanda]. Why not learn from each other and improve together? I think that would be more pragmatic and important than calling dares.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby everything on Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:25 pm

I really like cartmell's explanation(s) a lot. he doesn't really talk about "internal" woo-woo, which is probably a good thing for 99.9% of people (though I prefer not to throw out "internal" "energy" stuff if you want to talk IMA as that is exactly what it adds that isn't in the core of mma wresting/jiu jitsu/mt).

the "mid range" is a good way of classifying ph and other things.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby johnwang on Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:42 pm

Do the following Q&A make sense?

Q: Why should I add defense against head punch into my PH training?
A: So your opponent's punch won't knock you down.

Q: Why should I add defense against foot sweep into my PH training?
A: So your opponent's foot sweep won't take you down.

Q: Why should I add shin bite into my PH training?
A: So you can control your opponent's leading leg.

Q: But my Taiji training partner won't do that to me.
A: What if your opponent is not a Taiji person?
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Trick on Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:05 am

Do I remember this right, wasn’t the Taiji “Grasp birds tail” PH developed “later”, for example it wasn’t around in Yang Banhou’s days of training ?
Think I have read that somewhere.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby origami_itto on Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:59 am

Trick wrote:Do I remember this right, wasn’t the Taiji “Grasp birds tail” PH developed “later”, for example it wasn’t around in Yang Banhou’s days of training ?
Think I have read that somewhere.


One theory is that Yang Lu Chan used to practice endless repetitions of "cloudy hands" that was then later formalized into the specific movements of GST, that then became the push hands "four sides" exercise.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Bao on Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:16 am

oragami_itto wrote:
Trick wrote:Do I remember this right, wasn’t the Taiji “Grasp birds tail” PH developed “later”, for example it wasn’t around in Yang Banhou’s days of training ?
Think I have read that somewhere.


One theory is that Yang Lu Chan used to practice endless repetitions of "cloudy hands" that was then later formalized into the specific movements of GST, that then became the push hands "four sides" exercise.


Both Clouds hands and GST are found in much older TCMA traditions than Yang Luchan Tai Chi. But as cloud hands are easily transformed into both peng and lü, there might be some truth in that cloud hands was the foundation of four corners PH.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:04 am

there might be some truth in that cloud hands was the foundation of four corners PH.


It's an interesting theory. Personally, I would say that the "hands" part of WHLC (Yun Shou) is definitely basic to the four corners. But, I think that it's the footwork (side to side) that makes WHLC a specific form. I.e., if stepping forward and backward (advance/retreat) are added, it becomes a different expression (and that could be "ward off", etc. I'm not sure that WHLC is more basic to "four corners" than to "four sides." I think that Brush Knee and Repulse Monkey (Reeling forearms) are also basic.

Otoh, I would say that one can accomplish most of the tcc energies within the context of WHLC. In fact, that would be a good test. I.e., have someone attack and just use WHLC. At least, you can find out what you can use it for.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby origami_itto on Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:34 am

We seem to be using corners and sides interchangeably.

When I say sides I mean Peng, lu, ji, an, as in the CMC push hands sequence. The corners refer to lie, tsai, kao, and Zhou, as in the da lu exercise.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Bao on Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:40 am

Meant peng lu ji an. Four movements.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby robert on Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:50 am

Trick wrote:Do I remember this right, wasn’t the Taiji “Grasp birds tail” PH developed “later”, for example it wasn’t around in Yang Banhou’s days of training ?

Yang long form comes from Chen laojia yilu. The names of many of the postures differ, but the jin and basic techniques are there. I don't think it's coincidence that the 4 primary jin appear at the beginning of the form and that that is what is trained in the basic push hand patterns.

Laojia Yilu

Preparing Form (Tai ji Qi Shi)
Buddha’s Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar (Jin Gang Dao Dui) - ward off left, ward off right [peng]
Lazy about Tying Coat (Lan Za Yi)
Six Sealing and Four Closing (Liu Feng Si Bi) - press, roll back, push [ji, lu, an]

Yang 103

Yùbèi Preparation Form
Qǐ shì Beginning
Lǎn què wěi Grasp the Bird's Tail - ward off left, ward off right [peng], rollback [lu], press [ji], and push [an]

FWIW
Last edited by robert on Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:58 am

When I say sides I mean Peng, lu, ji, an, as in the CMC push hands sequence. The corners refer to lie, tsai, kao, and Zhou, as in the da lu exercise.


Agreed.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:31 am

johnwang wrote:Do the following Q&A make sense?

Q: Why should I add defense against head punch into my PH training?
A: So your opponent's punch won't knock you down.

Q: Why should I add defense against foot sweep into my PH training?
A: So your opponent's foot sweep won't take you down.

Q: Why should I add shin bite into my PH training?
A: So you can control your opponent's leading leg.

Q: But my Taiji training partner won't do that to me.
A: What if your opponent is not a Taiji person?


Any pushing that doesn't answer the questions isn't even at a basic level
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