Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

[Trick]

No I do not mean - dive down grab a leg and try a mighty throw, there are other more subtle ways. With people less experienced I hint more clear to mind the legs too.
Knowing where your legs are is important especially at such a close distance, it should be learned early on. And the awareness of the legs and their potentials in conjunction with the upper body is as you know also learned from forms practice. Why lose it when begin partner practice ?

[Steve James]

Ah, but there are separable issues. One depends on the protocols of one's push hands practice. The other is whether phs prepares on for the unexpected realities. I.e., sure, it might not be part of one's phs to use kicks, but if a guy tries to kick you in the nuts, either you prevent him or you don't. I was taught to "Defend oneself at all times," and trying to remain calm while knowing the other guy might strike was part of the training. "Catching" the other person wasn't really the point.

I think it's possible to learn more from people who don't care about the patterns than from those who do. I mean, to learn more about what is useful and usable (for you). I don't think it's necessary to use phs to do this. Imo, "freestyle" should be "freestyle," not phs freestyle. I just mean that when we did freestyle, it wasn't phs. At the time, ground work wasn't so prevalent. Today, however, if freestyle phs exists, one should be able to kick, grapple, throw, arm bar on the ground, etc. That's just an If.

[Steve James]

I wasn't replying to Trick. But, in some styles/schools, there's a practice called push legs --which trains sensitivity to the opponent's leg movements and counters for them. Besides, this is a fixed-step phs problem. There's no rule that you can't just move your leg (or legs, if it's a double leg), or just step out of the way.

[marvin8]

Way too many that I’ve done “set” Taiji PH with have had no sensible response if I do or just hint a leg “attack”. They have been flat out taken by surprise.
This would not just mean their PH approach is wrong but also their form practice approach has been wrong for a long time.

[windwalker]

In this discussion it seems that many have run into people with no formal training behind them and are trying to judge a training exercise based on this.

I can understand what Appledog, has posted, agree in principle with some of it. Once a certain level is reached an understanding and ability devopled, free or fixed it's the same.

Ph is designed to develop a body method, and awareness, if not practiced with this intent in mind it will never develop.

If one practices with this intent in mind many of the questions are answered by the practice itself.

[Trick]

Way too many that I’ve done “set” Taiji PH with have had no sensible response if I do or just hint a leg “attack”. They have been flat out taken by surprise.
This would not just mean their PH approach is wrong but also their form practice approach has been wrong for a long time.

Exactly, leg awareness is fundamental, if you don’t have that(as an longtime practitioner) if you do not have that even during a “set” exercise, your practice has not been proper. I wouldn’t expect beginner to have it, so with them I make a hint, to help them grow. With more experienced practitioners that i sense their legs are missing I hint to make understand something is missing.I’m a gentle guy so me making hints never come around in a bullying way. And when I meet fellow practitioners and teachers that make hints to me in this way I’m happy cause I will grow. We are all into this to learn and grow.

[Bao]

Exactly, leg awareness is fundamental, if you don’t have that(as an longtime practitioner) if you do not have that even during a “set” exercise, your practice has not been proper. I wouldn’t expect beginner to have it, so with them I make a hint, to help them grow. With more experienced practitioners that i sense their legs are missing I hint to make understand something is missing.I’m a gentle guy so me making hints never come around in a bullying way.

Though I agree with Appledog, sort of at least, I believe that this discussion is missing the mark a bit. Leg awareness might lack, but this is not the most important. Regardless what you do, this or that, it should not be a problem for an experienced player. If you can feel the opponent's body and structure through your hands, you should be able to sense that something out of the usual is happening and be able to respond. If someone kicks. just follow the body movement and fill in, it's pretty simple and basic really. If you can't feel the opponent's whole body structure and are not able to react to a kick or something else outside the drills, you need more practice. Simple as that. IMHO.

[Giles]

Yup. Being happy to do tuishou with a specific person on the basis of, for instance, ‘mutual learning, mutual assistance, keep things within the agreed circles and techniques’ is fine. It’s a good thing . But it should NOT mean that if this person, while doing tuishou with you, suddenly kicks, or goes for a single leg takedown, or aims a fast fist at your face or, just for the sake of argument, pulls a knife on you, that then you are helpless. If you’re doing the ‘basic’ tuishou training and patterns in the way they are intended, with the right body and mind, then these should be helping you to have the sensitivity, relaxed speed and precision of technique for dealing with the tough stuff. So even while being veeeery friendly and keeping it simple, you should be doing 'proper' Tai Chi.

You listening, John W.?

[windwalker]

You listening, John W.?

Are you listening?

What JW, often and correctly talks about is mindset.



In China, Taiwan, and other places I've been in Asia people normally ask friendly or not when engaging with strangers or people in the parks. This sets the tone of the encounter and makes it very clear about what one is doing and engaging in.


If this is not clear at the beginning, it can be problematic, unless one is very good at what they do it's not advisable.

Ph, is an exercise, a method of training. There are a couple of steps missing or lacking prior to one engaging in the range and contact that this exercise relies on.

People viewing it as some type of martial encounter never seem to want to do anything outside of it. While some claim they can do anything they want with in it.

What's the point?

Some light sparring, includes all the ranges and allows one to use whatever skill sets they gained from push hands or any other type of training / method.

The goal of push hands it's not to be good at push hands.

[johnwang]

If Taiji is a

- striking art, it should be able to handle kick/punch.
- throwing art, it should be able to handle throw.

If PH by itself is not sufficient to handle kick, punch, and throw, you will need other training.

[Giles]

@ Windwalker + John Wang

Yes, I'm listening. Of course.
Actually I agree basically with both your more recent posts here.

Yes, the aim of push hands is not to be "good at push hands". It's part of training to be "good at Tai Chi Chuan". And push hands is only one slice of the cake. But once again, if you're "doing it right" then you should be able to keep using the same skills to protect yourself if a partner suddenly breaks the agreed frame of action. I'm always careful to politely and clearly define the spectrum of activity in a round of push hands when training with strangers or people I don't know very well. It's usually fine. But there will always be a few people who break the agreement, either because they are ass****s or because they don't have themselves under control. I've experienced that in Asia and in Europe. In the past I came very, very close to getting my arm broken, at least 3 times. Nowadays I feel less worried about someone suddenly going a bit 'crazy' on me because my skills are a little better and there is no essential difference for me between doing 'gentle circles' in fixed step and including 'friendly' strikes, locks and throws etc. in moving step. (Yes, which is still not the same as sparring, I know ).

[johnwang]

It's part of training to be "good at Tai Chi Chuan".

We look at this from 2 different directions.

- You want to be good at Taiji. You want to use Taiji only. Your option is limited.
- I want to be good at fighting. I don't care what CMA styles that I may have to use. I have many options.

If I can't find something that I need from CMA, I will look into non-CMA. If I still can't find what I need, I will try to create it myself.

[marvin8]

@ Windwalker + John Wang

Yes, I'm listening. Of course.
Actually I agree basically with both your more recent posts here.

Yes, the aim of push hands is not to be "good at push hands". It's part of training to be "good at Tai Chi Chuan". . . .

Yes, which is still not the same as sparring, I know ).

If one is learning tai chi chuan as a martial art, the aim of push hands is to be good at "handling kick, punch and throw" in a fight.

To be good at "handling kick, punch and throw" in a fight, Chen Village trains "external martial arts as well, particularly sanda."

Excerpts from "An interview with Wang Yan, head coach of the Chenjiagou Taijiquan School:"

Tuishou training for children was play-like: we children liked playing with each other this way. Those trainings were not about learning the specific techniques or exploring the skill in any systematic way, but they were more like rough playing. Other types of training, on the contrary, were quite demanding: we did a lot of weight lifting, stretching, also other strength excercises to develop fitness and muscular abilities. . . .

I was taught, for example, some external martial arts as well, particularly sanda and shaolin kungfu. . . .


Wang Yan training with his master Chen Ziqiang in 2016 (photo: personal archive of Wang Yan)


Wang Yan in combat training in 2016 (photo: personal archive of Wang Yan)

[Giles]

Each to his own. I want to be "good at Tai Chi Chuan" in the sense that I would like, within my own limited time, abilities and resources, to get the most I can out of Tai Chi Chuan at various levels. As a martial art, as a great resource for physical health and as a resource for life (including self-knowledge and engaging in personal interactions in many areas of life).

I have no urge or goal to be a "fighter" in any great sense. I enjoy many aspects of martial arts, and I think I have a significantly better chance of defending myself and others in some kinds of situations than I could before. Some years ago, at the age of 50, I trained MMA for a year and I still do cross-training with people from various martial arts. Just took a workshop this weekend on CMA throws/takedowns, had a great time. I keep myself fit in various ways. For my needs and interests, Tai Chi is great as a core art because there's so much in it. (If things go to the ground, then what I trained in my fairly brief MMA period still serves me fairly well). And push hands, to keep this at least a little on topic, is a great and potentially very diverse window on the art -- if you use it as part of a feedback loop with other TCC training methods.

[johnwang]

If I still can't find what I need, I will try to create it myself.

I try to use only 2 strategies to deal with all punches.

1. Rhino guard - close the front door, open both side doors, invite opponent's punch to come through both side doors.
1. Chinese zombie guard - close both side doors, open the front door, invite opponent's punch to come through the front door.

Since both strategies exist in neither CMA nor non-CMA, I just have to create it myself.