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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:16 pm
by Walk the Torque
Giles wrote:
Appledog wrote: Yes, your training path should help you to reach to your goal. But the other side of this is that, just based on the posts on this thread, no one has any idea what that goal is, nor do they follow any kind of training path to get there. More than anything this thread demonstrates a rejection and refusal to follow a more traditional approach. Is anyone really suprised then when after 10 or 20 years there are still debates over whether or not Qi exists let alone being able to fight using their art?

It just boggles my mind how the first thing people do when they want to fight using taiji is throw out the taiji parts.


Bear in mind that statements in a thread about a particular issue or aspect of training usually, and necessarily, contain very selective information and descriptions. The basic approach to training, all the rest of the stuff that happens in the body and mind when you do a certain 'move', has to be left out. Otherwise one has to write an essay, plus fotonotes and caveats, each time one posts anything. (Which can still be misunderstood, and will usually bore people anyway). This means that when one person says 'do this or that', readers may possibly assume that this person is doing something completely different to the 'true way' because the brief description is formulated in a different way to how they themselves would describe it. By the same token, a similar-sounding verbal description of a move may lead others to think it has the same essence as they have or aim for, while in fact the person does something quite different. Possibly...

That said, please enlighten as to where (in this thread) you think everyone is 'throwing out the taiji parts'. And indeed why no-one has any idea about what the goal is and/or why everyone is refusing to follow a more traditional approach? :)


Hmmm,

I don't think that the goals or uses for PH aren't understood. its just that they may be:

a) Misinterpreted
b) not be tailored to by the practice (so that say, if one wished to become good at evasive movement, but was stuck in resisting an oncoming push instead of practicing micro evasions).
c) not being catered to by a more creative approach to pushing hands to assist in achieving certain goals.

The reason I started this thread was an inquiry into how people practice their pushing hands and the purposes they are catering to. Of course PH will not give you the best and most efficient way of learning ground fighting, so what are we doing it for?

The answers I have gotten so far is Chin Na, rooting , use of Jin(s) , blocking movements and leg work. So far the concept of evasion, positioning, stepping, distance control, striking and throwing have not been fully explored.

For instance, when I focus on close quarters fighting while doing PH I take the classic's comment of not letting your opponent touch your chest with his ward off to heart and really try to avoid this happening.

If I am working on strong blocks and good internal connection I try to make each posture contain a solid and impenetrable feel so the frame is connected throughout, from posture to posture.

If working on entering for a push, lock or throw I try to work the simultaneous evade-neutralize-step in.

Just trying to get a more nuanced discussion going ;D

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:17 pm
by johnwang
Let's look at the fight between Taiji Huang Xingxian (CMC's student) and Central CMA Institute graduated Zhang Yingjian during the 1st Taiwan CMA tournament in 1955.

http://hls1955.pixnet.net/blog/post/100 ... %A0%B4%29-

Huang had both height and weight advantage over Zhang. When the fight started, Zhang's attack forced Huang to back up. Within 1 minute, Huang's face had been punched by Zhang many times. Zhang then used a foot sweep to take Huang down and won the fight. In the whole fight, Huang didn't even have any chance to touch Zhang's body.

If PH + X = effective combat then what is X?

Image

Image

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:54 pm
by oragami_itto
Well if you're a martial artist and anyone beats you ever you must abandon all of your studies, cut off your left hand, and become a beet farmer because clearly your kung fu was shit.

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:48 pm
by everything
oragami_itto wrote:Well if you're a martial artist and anyone beats you ever you must abandon all of your studies, cut off your left hand, and become a beet farmer because clearly your kung fu was shit.


Lol same if someone is better than you at music

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:21 pm
by Trick
JW, that’s some interesting info, never heard it before. If you got more of this, it would be fun read

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:34 am
by wayne hansen
Can you tell us a little more about Zhang

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:53 am
by johnwang
wayne hansen wrote:Can you tell us a little more about Zhang

Here is a tournament clip:

http://catalog.digitalarchives.tw/item/00/31/99/9f.html

張英健 Zhang Yingjian graduated from 中央國術館 the central CMA Institute. he was a long fist master.

My long fist teacher and many of his long fist brothers also competed in that tournament.

張英健 Zhang Yingjian was the 1st row, 2nd one from the right. There are many CMA masters in this picture. My teacher was the 1st row, 1st one from the right.

1955年6月28日~中央國術館在臺同學,歡宴張英健榮獲武魁紀念~前排: 韓慶堂, 陳泮嶺, 李宗黄, 張英健, 常東昇.後排: 諶輝雄, 袁道, 傅淑雲, 李國民, 陳天一。

Image

One of Zhang's student.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVkN_2sznFg

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:08 am
by Steve James
If PH + X = effective combat then what is X?


Hmm, in your example, Zhang practiced longfist and the other guy did tcc, not "phs." SO, imo, it wasn't his push hands that was lacking. And, Zhang won the whole tournament, which means that he beat everyone else --including CMC's students, and the students of other styles. Didn't he beat the shuai jiao guy too?

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:10 am
by oragami_itto
And don't forget Huang was a white crane master before studying Taijiquan

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:31 am
by Trick
The “other guy” did TJQ but not PH, therefore he was not lacking in PH ??

Now I believe Huang did a lot of PH practice since PH seemingly was ZMQ’s favor exercise, and if I’m not all out, Fujian White-Crane boxing also has its PH practice.
Huang PH skill seem to have served him well in that famous “fight” agains a show-wrestler. But according to the story a few posts up, against physically fit strikers his PH was of no use.

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:05 am
by oragami_itto
But according to the story a few posts up, against physically fit strikers his PH was of no use.


He came in second overall in one competition and first in another, I'd hardly say that was "of no use". Somebody beat him, nobody and no style is invincible

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:29 am
by everything
When Royce dominated the early UFC, everyone maybe thought for a fleeting moment that bjj > all, which is what they wanted, but of course later people thought bjj + X was the thing. But then ground and pound showed maybe wrestling + X was the thing. Maybe after that they thought bjj+wrestling+X. Not sure where this picture has ended up in 2019, but Ph + X is surely not it.

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:16 am
by Steve James
The “other guy” did TJQ but not PH, therefore he was not lacking in PH ??


Phs is NOT a martial art. It's like saying there was a contest between someone who does Xingyi and someone who skips rope or hits the speed bag instead of saying a boxer.

In general, people who do phs also do tcc. Usually, they do it first. That is not an argument against phs, either.

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:22 am
by Steve James
Somebody beat him, nobody and no style is invincible


Yep. Not only that, he was beaten by the guy who won the tournament. It is no shame to be taken out by the tournament winner, even if it's in the first round. Fact is, that would be what I'd want. I do know there are people who have no defeats on their records. However, most of the greatest fighters around have eventually suffered losses. 99% of everyone else has gotten outclassed more than once, or has not been tested much.

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:50 am
by johnwang
Steve James wrote:Didn't he beat the shuai jiao guy too?

The SC champion gave up (didn't think he had chance to fight against Zhang) and didn't compete in the grand championship fight.