What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:58 am

specific way(s) to put the mind into the exercises. Quite simple but with profound result...that’s all.....literally all..8-)
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:05 am

MaartenSFS wrote:I've met a number of masters that take discipleship very seriously and don't do it for the money. My Master hopes that all of his disciples can succeed him and pass on the art. You can't sit there and judge the culture from behind your computer in the West just because some of the masters that made it over there are playing the long con. There are hacks in every country.

I agree here. Just because some of the forum members has had bad experiences with teachers the whole discipleship culture can not be bashed. One could ask oneself why one attracted bad teachers/people
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:29 am

Ime, the question is not "what" is taught; the question is only "why" someone is not taught. If you know how to hurt someone, you don't teach someone who likes to hurt people. If you teach, you either have to choose your students or choose what to teach them. But, the reason is that you don't really know who they are or their characters.

I don't believe that any teacher who wants to teach wants to hide their teaching. I think people who want to be students think that teachers are being selfish and "holding back." Who says you deserve to know? Or, is it just that they've paid class tuition? And, since not all students are the same, the teacher needs to give them what each one needs.

I don't know if any teacher held back anything from me. I have had teachers tell me not to share what I've been taught with anyone but my student. I.e., someone I trusted. Otoh, he said that if I did, I would do it under my own name and take responsibility for it. He also said that, if I did, non-students would say that they (and everybody) knew it already.

The things that should never be held back are the things that help and heal.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:42 am

Steve James wrote:The things that should never be held back are the things that help and heal.

Some teachers don't like to teach counters to his door guarding skill. For example, if one is good in

- foot sweep, he may not teach how to use single leg to counter foot sweep.
- single leg, he may not teach how to use downward pulling to counter single leg.
- ...

The reason is simple just in case one day his own students may challenge him.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:13 am

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:The things that should never be held back are the things that help and heal.

Some teachers don't like to teach counters to his door guarding skill. For example, if one is good in

- foot sweep, he may not teach how to use single leg to counter foot sweep.
- single leg, he may not teach how to use downward pulling to counter single leg.
- ...

The reason is simple just in case one day his own students may challenge him.


As romantic as the notion may be, don't you think it's a bit old fashioned? Maybe a little Hollywood?
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:55 pm

oragami_itto wrote:As romantic as the notion may be, don't you think it's a bit old fashioned? Maybe a little Hollywood?

I have 7 of my students challenged me in the past. It happens.

Did you Taiji teacher teach you all the Taiji application, counters to those applications, and counters to those counters?
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby charles on Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:58 pm

Steve James wrote:I don't believe that any teacher who wants to teach wants to hide their teaching.


I think that begs the question. Teachers can "want" to teach for a wide variety of reasons. Not all of those reasons are about passing on knowledge and skill. Some, for example, might teach to make money: passing on knowledge or skill might be irrelevant to them.


I think people who want to be students think that teachers are being selfish and "holding back." Who says you deserve to know? Or, is it just that they've paid class tuition? And, since not all students are the same, the teacher needs to give them what each one needs.


Ah, there's the catch. If you are a teacher taking money from people under the guise of teaching them a specific endeavour, it is dishonest to take the money and not teach the stated endeavour. Taijiquan students assume that they pay fees so that their teacher of Taijiquan will teach them the art of Taijiquan. Sure, you can go down a rabbit hole and define Taijiquan to be - or not be - whatever you say it is, or isn't, so that you don't have to teach what you don't want to. But, that's just another flavour of dishonest - or at least misleading. Sure, the student has some responsibility to determine if the teacher's definition meets the students - that is, that the teacher is going to teach what the student is wanting to learn.

"The teacher needs to give them what each one needs" is a fine line. On one side of that line is individualized teaching: on the other is the potential for an abuse of power.

The things that should never be held back are the things that help and heal.


I wish it was a simple and as black and white as that. To use your argument, why, because they've paid class tuition? Helping and healing are just part of the package of "The Real Stuff", the stuff teachers hold back.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:10 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:As romantic as the notion may be, don't you think it's a bit old fashioned? Maybe a little Hollywood?

I have 7 of my students challenged me in the past. It happens.


Okay but what are the stakes, that you have to stop teaching and swear to give up shuai jiao? Cut off your right hand? Auntie Mary loses the farm?
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:13 pm

Reasons that my Master has held back knowledge have been:
1) The student hadn't trained what he'd already taught them very hard or well.
2) The student didn't show enough basic respect towards him or what he was teaching.
3) The student didn't show good character and would possibly use the lessons for evil.
4) The student wasn't ready yet.
5) The student wasn't taught door-guarding techniques until near the end of their studies, both because they weren't ready and because Shifu had to decide whether they were worthy enough. When I proved my worth and reached a high skill level my Master taught me everything and it didn't matter whether I could beat him or not anymore. Ego was totally removed out of the equation and the goal was now for me to totally master his art and pass it on to future generations. Nowadays the fear is less that a student will kill the master (as the famous cat and tiger story goes) as it is that they will steal their business or make them lose face. In my Master's case it is more about proving character.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:26 pm

Some, for example, might teach to make money: passing on knowledge or skill might be irrelevant to them.


I taught for a living, and it still wasn't for the money. I could have made more money doing other things. But, I taught because I wanted to teach --and that doesn't beg the question because wanting to teach is not the same as wanting to make money. Moreover, if someone wants to make money, it's much more profitable to say there are "hidden" things that one will have to pay extra for. There is literally nothing that someone who just wants money won't teach. That would be a paradox.

Helping and healing are just part of the package of "The Real Stuff", the stuff teachers hold back.


I simply disagree. I disagree with any teacher who holds back what could help his student. I wouldn't bother trying to study with him. I think it is a question of character. Yeah, laugh, I think it should be given away for free. Note: I'm not saying that there aren't teachers who think differently, or that you (Charles) have not met them. I don't even care if they're the "top" men in the style. It's just my view, and it may limit me.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:27 pm

charles wrote:"The teacher needs to give them what each one needs" is a fine line.

This can be an issue too.

- Student A wants to learn kick and punch to compete in continuous sparring.
- Student B wants to learn joint locking and throw for his bouncer daily job.

When these 2 students come, it's very difficult for you to teach to satisfy both.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:36 pm

When these 2 students come, it's very difficult for you to teach to satisfy both.


A good teacher --one who has the student's need in mind-- will send that student to someone who can teach him what he needs.

Afa challenges, cma must be totally different from boxing. Coaches and trainers --who develop "styles"-- won't be challenged by their fighters. Few would expect to win. But, I've heard some ima/cma people say "If you can't beat me, you can't train me." I can't someone challenging Eddie Futch or a Cu D'Amato, etc. The ethics are just not the same.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:53 pm

Steve James wrote:"If you can't beat me, you can't train me."

The challenge can also happen after many years of your teaching and not before. This usually happen when a student leaves you and thinks that he may never see you again.

My teacher didn't want me to talk about how to counter "circular dragging". But I have shared that information in RSF. IMO, I don't care if my student's "skill" are on my level, as long as my "ability" is above then, I don't mind my student's challenge.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby dspyrido on Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:58 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:"If you can't beat me, you can't train me."

The challenge can also happen after many years of your teaching and not before. This usually happen when a student leaves you and thinks that he may never see you again.

My teacher didn't want me to talk about how to counter "circular dragging". But I have shared that information in RSF. IMO, I don't care if my student's "skill" are on my level, as long as my "ability" is above then, I don't mind my student's challenge.


I'm looking forward to challenging my 80+ year old wrestling coach. Maybe then he will feel compelled to teach me those damned secret techniques.

7 students challenged you? Where they really challenging or just playing?
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:21 pm

dspyrido wrote:7 students challenged you? Where they really challenging or just playing?

According to the CMA tradition, a

- teacher can ask his student to spar/wrestle. The teacher knows his own body condition.
- student asks his teacher to spar/wrestle, that's challenge. The student doesn't know his teacher's body condition.
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