the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Trick wrote:I’ve been told by one of my teachers to keep certain teachings “under my hat” to only give away if I myself ever seriously take on a teachers role, and give it to the most dedicated/talented long time student(s). And make him/her follow the same..... I agreed

This is the exactly situation that I have stated here. A CMA teacher tells his disciple how should the disciple teach. It's addressed to all students and not just any particular student.

for some subjects that i've taught, it's not a question of holding back. it's more that only certain students can grasp the lesson.

I'm not sure of the modern rationale of this kind of holding back idea. maybe it made sense in ancient times or with strange politics happening in a nation.

I probably listened to 1/2 of what my teacher said but copied most of his explicit and discernible behaviours that I could possibly use. Again, my limited perception of my ignorance and lack thereof so this is relative
He never talked too much, always took us to demonstrations to get 'new students' and we performed for special holidays like New Years Day and a few other celebrations.

He always said that some of us (students) would be better than him in a roundabout way and even suggested that his students to study with other teachers.
What I did realize was that the "rice bowl" is open to all. I realize that there were a few things my teacher taught that few people showed up so I learnt a few tricks along the way.
He even told us abuot one teacher in the Chicago area (Prof Huo Chi Kwang)and I did study with him for a short while!

I do realize that some stuff is for show (performance, etc) and that the essence of the art, few want to spend time or do the 10,000 repetitions to gain mastery and own the 'inner essence'! It's all good

it makes a huge difference if there is international standardization and some kind of rigorous pedagogy in an art or sport or endeavor rather than all ad hoc individual teacher decisions, even if the teacher is a "professional".

it's not the same thing to say "I coached Curry at Golden State" vs. "I played college ball and then hung out my shingle" even if the second person was actually better as a player.

johnwang wrote:

Trick wrote:I’ve been told by one of my teachers to keep certain teachings “under my hat” to only give away if I myself ever seriously take on a teachers role, and give it to the most dedicated/talented long time student(s). And make him/her follow the same..... I agreed

This is the exactly situation that I have stated here. A CMA teacher tells his disciple how should the disciple teach. It's addressed to all students and not just any particular student.

Quite typical I think, actually!

Some people can "break" out of it by teaching a "new" art (openly).

Maybe this is what Xue Dian did - i.e. teach xingyiquan openly by teaching his creation of xiangxingquan, to break the rule without breaking the rule.

Yes I agree, many Chinese are as lazy as any other national. Not many Chinese take up GongFu. And if parents want their kid learn MA they let them do TKD because then chinese costumes of “caring” for the teacher does not have to be followed(money saved) And I agree that mostly Chinese students “lack the impulse of question” , but then(of what I’ve seen) some westerners have an excess impulse of asking questions, and want way too much in a too short time.

johnwang wrote:

Trick wrote:I’ve been told by one of my teachers to keep certain teachings “under my hat” to only give away if I myself ever seriously take on a teachers role, and give it to the most dedicated/talented long time student(s). And make him/her follow the same..... I agreed

This is the exactly situation that I have stated here. A CMA teacher tells his disciple how should the disciple teach. It's addressed to all students and not just any particular student.

One can learn and come to good understanding and become quite accomplished of that particular MA my teacher teach without the “under the hat” methods, just that that method encompasses everything in one method...sort of. But still it’s best for students to methodically go through the stages of practice that lay beforehand. So in a way nothing is withheld.

Trick wrote:Yes I agree, many Chinese are as lazy as any other national. Not many Chinese take up GongFu. And if parents want their kid learn MA they let them do TKD because then chinese costumes of “caring” for the teacher does not have to be followed(money saved) And I agree that mostly Chinese students “lack the impulse of question” , but then(of what I’ve seen) some westerners have an excess impulse of asking questions, and want way too much in a too short time.

That was ment as a comment to maarten’s post

A CMA teacher tells his disciple how should the disciple teach.

What if you have two different teachers who have completely opposite views on what to teach to whom?

This is why I don’t like “discipleship” as it’s understood today. If you become a disciple you are bound to teach what your Master teaches exact and literally. There is little room for individual thoughts and your own artistic expression will be limited. But still, if you look at things from the outside, philosophy and method have great variation. Restrictions for the sake of restriction will never develop and carry an art forward, which is exactly the opposite from the Chinese traditional view that every next generation must become better than the present one and improve the art. Strict discipleship as seen today kills the development and progress of Art.

Strict discipleship as seen today kills the development and progress of Art.

It is so true. Discipleship nowadays is a way to make more money. The teachers make more, and the disciples also make more from accepting disciples. Discipleship is a business model.

like a pyramid scheme? in order to make money from a pyramid scheme, you need the base to be really, really wide. quantity not necessarily quality.

but it's better if you actually have quality and can do a good, repeatable educational system, standardized around the world.

It can be a franchise model. Using the "brand" to take members, sell them products (forms), big red pocket to get to middle level (disciple), devote their time and money to get to management level (inside disciple), get the member to open branches to collect franchise fees...…..

suckinlhbf wrote:

Strict discipleship as seen today kills the development and progress of Art.

It is so true. Discipleship nowadays is a way to make more money. The teachers make more, and the disciples also make more from accepting disciples. Discipleship is a business model.

I do have a certain respect for the Chen guys in charge, but when I hear a person as Chen Zhenglei stating that he has "several hundreds of close students around the world" I can't help feeling that discipleship has been watered down...

I've met a number of masters that take discipleship very seriously and don't do it for the money. My Master hopes that all of his disciples can succeed him and pass on the art. You can't sit there and judge the culture from behind your computer in the West just because some of the masters that made it over there are playing the long con. There are hacks in every country.

Trick wrote:I’ve been told by one of my teachers to keep certain teachings “under my hat” to only give away if I myself ever seriously take on a teachers role, and give it to the most dedicated/talented long time student(s). And make him/her follow the same..... I agreed

Just out of curiosity, what kind of stuff was it? The techniques, neigong, something of a more "spiritual" kind or something else?