the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Steve James wrote: I taught because I wanted to teach --and that doesn't beg the question because wanting to teach is not the same as wanting to make money.

I'm not interested in arguing for the sake of arguing. To be crystal clear, many use teaching as a vehicle to making money: their teaching is not about teaching, it is about making money. Sure, there are teachers, such as you, who teach for the love of teaching. As I previously stated, there are other teachers who teach for other reasons that are not primarily for the love of teaching.

I disagree with any teacher who holds back what could help his student. I wouldn't bother trying to study with him. I think it is a question of character.

Generally, I agree with you.

I once had a very interesting discussion with Liu Chengde. I was to interview him for publication. Instead, we ended up "chatting": nothing was published. The long and the short of it was that he wanted to know what I would do with the information I obtained during an interview with him. He asked why I would want to publish it, why I would want people to have the information. The drift of the discussion is that how Taijiquan is usually taught now, particularly in the West, is as a commodity that is bought and sold. Traditionally, in China, he said, that it wasn't that way and that one provided information to those that one wanted to have it, rather than try to advertise it and sell it out to anyone who will take it - picture having someone standing on a street corner with a sandwich board trying to sell it to passersby.

johnwang wrote:student asks his teacher to spar/wrestle, that's challenge. The student doesn't know his teacher's body condition.

And that's how they are going to learn a super secret closed door technique?????

I am confused. Do you see sparring as a challenge?

1. If you saw it as a challenge why would so many want to challenge (not spar) you?
2. Even if they did want to spar why wouldn't you just see it as a spar vs. turning it into a challenge?
3. Why is sparring considered such a big deal that it needs to represent anything more than an opportunity to learn? That stands for teacher and student.
4. Who does a teacher spar with if not their students? Strangers? Competitors? As people age it's not going to be school mates or their teacher.

If sparring is viewed as a big deal then this has to be the #1 reason why so much gets lost in CMA and replaced with ineffective nonsense.

johnwang wrote:

dspyrido wrote:7 students challenged you? Where they really challenging or just playing?

According to the CMA tradition, a

- teacher can ask his student to spar/wrestle. The teacher knows his own body condition.
- student asks his teacher to spar/wrestle, that's challenge. The student doesn't know his teacher's body condition.

It's kinda strange...you come from a triditioinal back ground one that some here dont seem to get
or understand

A teacher may teach one kung fu,,,they can also take it away....

Do genuine masters really withhold their best techniques from their students? According to Grandmaster David Chin, they do. “The old traditional masters, they were so protective of themselves,” comments Chin. “They made sure they could make a living. They didn’t want the students to compete against them.”

https://www.usadojo.com/keeping-kung-fu ... avid-chin/

In ancient times, a kung fu master’s art was his livelihood, so they were always vigilant against potential traitors. While few still earn all of their living from martial arts, the tradition of secrecy continues to create swirling controversies.

In many traditions, keeping secrets is inherent, not just from students but also from the government. With our own national security now wrestling with the touchy issue of personal privacy, it’s worth examining how our martial forefathers hid the arts underground. These subversive masters were catalysts for evolution.

Guang Ping was the product of Yang Ban Hou (1837-1892 CE楊班侯), the son of Yang Tai Chi founder Yang Lu Chan (1799-1872 CE楊露禪). By imperial Qing decree, Yang Ban Hou was commanded to serve as teacher for the royal court. No one could defy the emperor and live, so despite his anti-Qing sentiments, Yang cooperated; but he protested by covertly withholding the true kung fu from his Manchurian students.

A stable boy named Wang Jiao Yu (王矯宇) spied on the private lessons and stole the teachings. Yang caught Wang, but realized that the boy was bonded to the Qing just as he was.

In fact, they were both from the same place, Guang Ping City. So after testing his dedication, Yang took Wang on as a secret disciple, transmitting to him the true teachings.

charles wrote:
I once had a very interesting discussion with Liu Chengde. I was to interview him for publication. Instead, we ended up "chatting": nothing was published. The long and the short of it was that he wanted to know what I would do with the information I obtained during an interview with him. He asked why I would want to publish it, why I would want people to have the information.

The drift of the discussion is that how Taijiquan is usually taught now, particularly in the West, is as a commodity that is bought and sold.

Traditionally, in China, he said, that it wasn't that way and that one provided information to those that one wanted to have it, rather than try to advertise it and sell it out to anyone who will take it - picture having someone standing on a street corner with a sandwich board trying to sell it to passersby.

Interesting isn't it?
Totally different way of looking at things...

We had a teacher and his student stop by the park we practiced in, in Beijing...

The teacher in talking with my teacher mentioned his student liked push hands...
My teacher smiled and called over some of the senior hands to push with the student...
Watching it I felt bad for the student they roughed him up pretty good. The PH in china is different.
All the things some ask about doing here, there its not done because if its serious, they can't..
They can try but for the most part will not be able to....

I was asked to push with the student....
after watching him get beat up,,,I just followed and neutralized what he did
not my style to hurt the guy...needlessly

The teacher stopped talking and they left....

not a fan of ph.

As a group, I have found that shuaijiao masters are far more honourable with their students and they have sought always to pass on 'real word' skill to their students!
Just from my short and limited association with Zhang Dungsheng Dashr!

Hey John, what happened when you challenged GM Chang?

Anyway, I think "challenging" and sparring are two different things. The teachers I've had who've trained for competition have all worked out with me and their students. Yep, there might be some students who won't accept a teacher if that teacher can be beaten by a student.

I do understand that it would be silly to teach someone who wanted to learn so that he could beat you up. Well, earlier in this thread there was some talk about discipleship. I don't think one makes a disciple out of a competitor. I thought a disciple was someone who'd help the old teacher, in addition to carrying on the teachings.

Steve James wrote:Hey John, what happened when you challenged GM Chang?

I didn't. If I did, I could burn that bridge forever.

I bet you feel as if you are a "disciple" of his, like a father figure, and you wouldn't have thought of challenging him --even if you thought you could win. I also think he didn't "hold back" from you. I'd also bet you'd have burnt a whole lot of bridges if you had. There'd be people lining up to challenge you back.

I understand that culture.

I don't like some CMA tradition such as a teacher is not willing to share. But I do like the CMA tradition that a student should not challenge his teacher.

I still remember one of my students went to train MT for a year and half. He then came back to challenge me. After the sparring, he threw his gloves on the floor, cried, and said, "I can't do anything right." In his mind, he must think that he could beat me for sure. What he didn't understand was I had sparred with his MT instructor (The Say Hi Oriental grocery store next door of my school) weekly. I was quite familiar with his MT fighting style.

Ha! I guess that he did not expect that (although the MT instructor's guy WAS next door).

I'd nod my head, not ask a single question with the aim of ending the conversation asap, and then do whatever I thought was appropriate. Then I'd just say I didn't really understand what I was originally told whenever it is that I get "caught," which would be inevitable because I surely wouldn't hide it forever.

Oddly enough, I think that's what my Sifu would think is the best thing to do, but he'd probably never openly admit it.

johnwang wrote:I don't like some CMA tradition such as a teacher is not willing to share. But I do like the CMA tradition that a student should not challenge his teacher.

I still remember one of my students went to train MT for a year and half. He then came back to challenge me. After the sparring, he threw his gloves on the floor, cried, and said, "I can't do anything right." In his mind, he must think that he could beat me for sure. What he didn't understand was I had sparred with his MT instructor (The Say Hi Oriental grocery store next door of my school) weekly. I was quite familiar with his MT fighting style.

Once again...

Why would they challenge you? Ok one lunatic maybe but 7? Was he just looking to learn and there was no one around or was he trying to prove he is superior?

Also why would you care if you don't feel like taking up sparring. Not up to it? Say no thanks! They can strut around and claim they are awesome but why care?

I mean if they are idiots isnt it better to just let them say their peice and go.... Or alternatively just soundly best their brains out of they are acting up.

dspyrido wrote:Why would they challenge you?

Some students challenged me for my 3 times US heavy weight SC champion record (1982, 1983, 1984).

johnwang wrote:

dspyrido wrote:Why would they challenge you?

Some students challenged me for my 3 times US heavy weight SC champion record (1982, 1983, 1984).

And you can't just say "no" or just fight and lose and learn from it. I guess I just don't get the big deal. They can't take away your victories and nobody is the best forever.