What do you think about this punching combo?

[johnwang]

Marvin8 wrote :
Subitai's post is okay. But, it doesn't answer how one would grab a boxer's parry, in order to pull.

My answer for Marvin8's question is the same move that I have used in grip fight all the time.

- Your opponent parries your arm.
- You rotate your arm the same direction and grab his wrist (or parry his arm).

It's the same counter that when your opponent tries to under hook (or over hook) your shoulder, you rotate your arm the same way as he does. If you are good with this, you can use your jab to bait for your opponent's downward parry, you can then rotate your arm the same direction and grab his wrist.

In the following clip, you can see how to use downward parry (inward circle) to counter opponent's downward parry (inward circle).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YvBXA- ... e=youtu.be

[johnwang]

But to answer marvin8 about actually trying to grabb a boxers parry...the easiest way would probably be to;
1) attack with jabb and wait to be parried or slapped to the side for example.

2l at the moment he parries, your other hand jamms into his parrying arm (usually into his chest) ...meaning you literally attack his parry. Then once it's slowed you can grab it.

I like to lead my boxer opponent''s parry into the emptiness (parry into the thin air). My opponent's parry will become my parry.

I have made this into daily training exercise:

1. Your opponent parry your arm (or try to grab your wrist).
2. You rotate your arm the same direction as he does and parry his arm back (or grab his wrist back).

You and your opponent can repeat 1,2 as many times as you want until one of you cannot escape the other persons wrist grabbing.

[marvin8]

use the same side hand, don't cross block.

When you say, "same side", do you mean:

- You opponent punches right, you block with right, or
- Your opponent punches right, you block with left?

It depends on which foot you have forward, which foot your opponent has forward and what punch your opponent throws. If your right foot is forward, your opponent's right foot is forward and your opponent throws a right jab, you parry with your left hand.

If your left foot is forward, your opponent's right foot is forward and your opponent throws a right jab, you parry with your left hand.

I agree that the "outside in" block is used more often if your opponent does not allow you to enter through his side door. This is why I think the reverse of the Taiji cloud hand can be more useful - the double spears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YvBXA- ... e=youtu.be

No. The "outside in" parry does "allow you to enter through his side door."

But to answer marvin8 about actually trying to grabb a boxers parry...the easiest way would probably be to;
1) attack with jabb and wait to be parried or slapped to the side for example.

2l at the moment he parries, your other hand jamms into his parrying arm (usually into his chest) ...meaning you literally attack his parry. Then once it's slowed you can grab it.

I like to lead my boxer opponent''s parry into the emptiness (parry into the thin air). My opponent's parry will become my parry.

No, you are the one "lead into emptiness" by jabbing (attacking), leaving your arm out (extended) attempting to grab and pull your opponent's rear hand (the OP scenario). You are exposed but, the opponent is not. OTOH, the opponent maintains his guard (peng), parries (an inch or two) while rolling back (lu), leading you into emptiness and counters (ji). If you feint a jab, the opponent can recover as he maintains his guard without overextending the parry. This parry clip is better than the initial one:

I have made this into daily training exercise:

1. Your opponent parry your arm (or try to grab your wrist).
2. You rotate your arm the same direction as he does and parry his arm back (or grab his wrist back).

So, are you saying you can grab the wrist of boxers' rear hand parries as shown in the posted clips? If so, can you post a clip of you, your student or anyone else doing this? It would be very helpful to see how you are able to do this, rather than just the theory.

I have not seen any CMA, etc., fighting videos of grabbing and pulling as you described in this thread, only videos of CMA fighters attempting to grab and pull and getting knocked down. Here are a couple hung gar fighting videos—no grabbing and pulling as you have described is found:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JCuaCMYv3Q


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8v2rI-nI3M

What do you think about this?

[johnwang]

So, are you saying you can grab the wrist of boxers' rear hand parries as shown in the posted clips? If so, can you post a clip of you, your student or anyone else doing this? It would be very helpful to see how you are able to do this, rather than just the theory.

I only use this strategy to deal with my opponent's leading arm (not rear hand) in "mirror stance" situation. I have used a jab to set up a hook by this method all the time in sparring.

- I punch between my opponent's boxing guard with my right. My opponent inside parries with his left leading arm.
- I borrow his parry force (sometime I won't let his parry to touch my arm), spin my right arm counter clockwise and change my jab into a hook to the head.

This is easy to do if you only commit 30% on your jab and ready to spin your arm the moment that you have detected your opponent's intention to parry.

I'm in California and I don't have students here, otherwise it's easy to make a clip for this.

[marvin8]

So, are you saying you can grab the wrist of boxers' rear hand parries as shown in the posted clips? If so, can you post a clip of you, your student or anyone else doing this? It would be very helpful to see how you are able to do this, rather than just the theory.

I only use this strategy to deal with my opponent's leading arm (not rear hand) in "mirror stance" situation. I have used a jab to set up a hook by this method all the time in sparring.

- I punch between my opponent's boxing guard with my right. My opponent inside parries with his left leading arm.
- I borrow his parry force (sometime I won't let his parry to touch my arm), spin my right arm counter clockwise and change my jab into a hook to the head.

This is easy to do if you only commit 30% on your jab and ready to spin your arm the moment that you have detected your opponent's intention to parry.

I'm in California and I don't have students here, otherwise it's easy to make a clip for this.

"Jab-hook" is a common combination. So, a clip isn't necessary. In the OP, you state the "key" is grabbing and arm pulling. Do you train "pull his right arm (on the wrist)?"

Both you and your opponent have right side forward.

1. You throw a jab. Your opponent block with his leading right arm.
2. You pull his right arm (on the wrist) and punch your left cross above his right arm and toward his face. Your opponent block with his left hand.
3. You let go your right grip and right punch his chest below his left arm.

The key of this combo is the arm pulling after the 1st jab. Without that pulling, your opponent's respond cannot be predicted. . . .

I like to lead my boxer opponent''s parry into the emptiness (parry into the thin air). My opponent's parry will become my parry.

I have made this into daily training exercise:

1. Your opponent parry your arm (or try to grab your wrist).
2. You rotate your arm the same direction as he does and parry his arm back (or grab his wrist back).

You and your opponent can repeat 1,2 as many times as you want until one of you cannot escape the other persons wrist grabbing.

[johnwang]

I like to guide my opponent's leading arm across his body.

[Wanderingdragon]

John has an excellent grasp of external Kung fu, little understanding of control though. Grabbing my hand gives me control of one of your weapons, and some opportunity to affect your balance, while helping me recognize where your other weapons are.

[yeniseri]

At face value, it is far more than CMA people do, including taijiquan people.
Though I am a pacifist I hate to punch people but I did notice that I do a few things alot different based on kali practice of years ago, I prefer to not only think a few hits ahead but block, parry and punch at the same time within that same output.

The rhythm is not a 1 and 2 and 3 but a 1 2 then based on the response 345, etc then shift to an opposite lower or higher gate to 'confuse' the opponent. Keep in mind that I have not hit anyone in over 10 years or so as I am an old man, for this purpose . As an example if I am trying to hit the face/neck and I get blocked, then I switch to a kick or attempt to throw, or which exploit I can get away with. Keep in mind that I am not that good but I have a little skill of something, I think

silat suffian 'punch"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_GybyHkiQo

A punch is not always a punch Open hand, close hand, slap, etc depending on what you want to accomplish, CHANGE

[johnwang]

Grabbing my hand gives me control of one of your weapons, and some opportunity to affect your balance, while helping me recognize where your other weapons are.

We have discussed this before. When your opponent grabs on your wrist, he is 1 step ahead of you. When you pay attention on his grip, he already tries to attack your body.

The wrist grab may last for only 1/4 second.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBOJq23 ... e=youtu.be

[origami_itto]

So I like it better without the grab.

Basically if you can get the right hand to block the right hand, press forward and push it towards the belly while you throw the left, then cross the left over and down while you release the right and punch over.

The key is pressure, suffocating them with the advance. More mental than physical, but also with geometry you can't argue with. Point being that it doesn't lock you up in a system the way a grab would.

[everything]

I think I end up posting this gif or a similar one whenever we talk about traps or guard removal.

His second guard attack looks like a punch and maybe was a punch, but he turns it into a limb removal as he retracts his punch.

of course it doesn't matter because fedor was so much better than tim, so maybe it's not the best example. I dunno.

[marvin8]

Grabbing my hand gives me control of one of your weapons, and some opportunity to affect your balance, while helping me recognize where your other weapons are.

We have discussed this before. When your opponent grabs on your wrist, he is 1 step ahead of you. When you pay attention on his grip, he already ready to attack your body.

The wrist grab may last for only 1/4 second.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBOJq23 ... e=youtu.be

Your video demonstration is dead—the opponent is not moving. This does not provide realistic training or testing.

You have it backwards. A trained fighter "pays attention" to any opening the opponent provides while reaching and punches him in the face. Easier yet, the trained fighter will lure (set up) the opponent to grab (chase hands), then punch to the face or other openings. When the opponent reaches to grab for your wrist, he is in a weaker position and vulnerable to counters. This is evidenced by several videos of CMAists getting knocked down while their arms are extended away from their face trying to make contact or grab their opponent.

There are inherent problems in "the arm pulling (on wrist)" steps in the OP which become apparent when tested with aliveness (e.g., normal speed, movement, no freezing of arms, counters, etc.).

This aliveness clip from "REAL VERSION* Aikido Kotegaeshi in MMA" demonstrates some of those problems with attempting wrist grabs:

[johnwang]

The following combos are almost the same. Use a jab to set up a

- hook.
- inside and downward parry,
- wrist grip.
- under hook below the shoulder.

You may not need to use jab to set it up. But if you want to borrow your opponent's force (or bait your opponent to open his side door), your jab is a good bait.

[Subitai]

You know... Everybody has their own thing that they are good at.

Wanderingdragon said :
Grabbing my hand gives me control of one of your weapons, and some opportunity to affect your balance, while helping me recognize where your other weapons are.

Mabe he is good at that...I won't doubt him. But it doesn't mean I'm not good at grabbing and hand control either. (if I set it up he's mine) Unfortunately the only way to prove it is to full on fight or spar it out.

For me it's clinching and grabbing and using that ability to set up a strike, sweep, lock or throw. It doesn't have to be for very long...just a split second hand control and pull. As (at one time a professional) I pull it off in sparring all the time. It's something that I'm really good at and i've already put up plenty of videos on how I set that up. I don't give ALL my shit away for free though.
===============================================================
To Marvin8 ... same thing as I said in my above paragraph.

As for those 2 videos you posted of "Hung gar" People sparring. Sorry to say that those guys may not specialize in doing this type of thing (grabbing at the right time i.e.) For me, it's something that I really developed AFTER I stopped doing full on MMA...but I've gotten really good at it the last 20 yrs.

To get back to what Johns original query was about...which is a grabbing and pulling combo.

- Yes it can be done...I do it all the time.
- Is it for everybody...of course not.
- You have to know what you're doing.


* I'd be glad to demo it on anyone that comes up Northeast: I'm here in Southeastern, CT. 2hrs from NY and 2 hrs from Boston....right in between. I'll buy the beer afterwards. I'm serious, any you guys message me...i'll buy.

Again, all I need to set that up is to have my right grab or hook your right down so that the bones of my forearm are facing the target (like an arrow). How is that achieved? The "Hand doesn't come back empty"

1) if my opponent is slowing down or leaving his arms out for a split second...it's easy to grab. This means you know when to do it as well how

2) You don't just grab a punch out of the air all the time...Haha, the Aikido guy is ridiculous! It's better to intercept it (interrupt it) and use that delay to achieve hand control. Also, it's not just done with one hand only...i often use two hands, i.e. a 2 on 1 scenario.

3) if we are clinching and wrestling for hand control...it's even easier. You see this all the time mma when two people are pressed up against a fence.

[johnwang]

Mabe he is good at that...I won't doubt him. But it doesn't mean I'm not good at grabbing and hand control either.

IMO, this has nothing to do with who is better at "body listen ability".

For example, you may be good at blocking my kick. But my intention is not to kick you. My intention is to use my kick to distract you so I can set up my punch.

"引 (Yin) - Arm guiding" is used to guide your opponent's arm away from your attacking path. As long a your opponent's arm can not cause you any trouble during that 1/4 sec, you will have a good chance to enter safely (or you will have a good chance to land your fist on his head).