Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Postby yeniseri on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:40 pm

Whatever made Yang style (mainly) less than martial is a telling tale based on the many jibengong of his brothers and they both had varying ways of conditioning.
It seems that main students of Yang Luchan (Wang Lanting and Li RUidong stated to be on a 'higher" plane of skill) had varying modes of that training based on what their main art was in their youth, allowed for better (read more disciplined training) than that of Yang Chengfu. I am not sure of the content but each group developed that current pattern based on their 'native' training and was able to transmit through association of their 'new" improved style.

My references are as follows:
1. Wang Lanting/Li Ruidong
2. Li Zheng
3. Students of Yang who developed x sets that are stated to teach more martial skill.
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Re: Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Postby Bao on Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:51 pm

Whatever made Yang style (mainly) less than martial is a telling tale based on the many jibengong of his brothers and they both had varying ways of conditioning.
It seems that main students of Yang Luchan (Wang Lanting and Li RUidong stated to be on a 'higher" plane of skill) had varying modes of that training based on what their main art was in their youth, allowed for better (read more disciplined training) than that of Yang Chengfu.


Yang Cheng Fu had studied the old school. What and how he taught in public was obviously not exactly how he had been taught.

BTW, why people says that Yang Style should be less martial than other styles I have no idea about except that it can look soft. People who believe that a more external look should be more martial have completely missed the point about what makes Tai chi Tai chi and about martial aspects of Tai Chi in general.
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Re: Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:06 pm

Bao wrote:People who believe that a more external look should be more martial have completely missed the point about what makes Tai chi Tai chi and about martial aspects of Tai Chi in general.


Yeah I always get a chuckle when people talk about doing tai chi but "more martial".

Don't get me wrong the traditional pedagogy could use some cardio, but the most martial expression of Yang taijiquan as I understand it is probably zhan zhuang . :D ;D
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Re: Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Postby Finny on Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:43 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
Bao wrote:People who believe that a more external look should be more martial have completely missed the point about what makes Tai chi Tai chi and about martial aspects of Tai Chi in general.


Yeah I always get a chuckle when people talk about doing tai chi but "more martial".

Don't get me wrong the traditional pedagogy could use some cardio, but the most martial expression of Yang taijiquan as I understand it is probably zhan zhuang . :D ;D


"The most 'related to fighting or war' expression of Yang TJQ is standing still, alone in a corner..."

Mmm, wonder why people might miss the point about 'martial aspects' of TJQ.
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Re: Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:10 am

Finny wrote:"The most 'related to fighting or war' expression of Yang TJQ is standing still, alone in a corner..."

Mmm, wonder why people might miss the point about 'martial aspects' of TJQ.

Many "old" CMA teachers like to teach ZZ. We just don't see many young CMA instructors teach ZZ. Why?

I didn't understand the reason until about 3 weeks ago when one of my CMA friends visited me.

A: Do you still train your CMA forms?
B: I have knee problem lately. Today I only train ZZ.

It's very sad that when you get old, ZZ may be the only thing that you can do. Ask your students to stand in ZZ for 1 hour and charge him $30 is not a bad idea.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:18 am

johnwang wrote:
Finny wrote:"The most 'related to fighting or war' expression of Yang TJQ is standing still, alone in a corner..."

Mmm, wonder why people might miss the point about 'martial aspects' of TJQ.

Many "old" CMA teachers like to teach ZZ. We just don't see many young CMA instructors teach ZZ. Why?

It's very sad that when you get old, ZZ may be the only thing that you can do. Ask your students to stand in ZZ for 1 hour and charge him $30 is not a bad idea.


Where I've trained we rarely spent more than 15 minutes of a two hour class standing, in my classes we might do 10, for personal practice I try to get 25 per day.

I've been told that more than that and you're getting diminishing returns.

But definitely, the fastest, most powerful movement is stillness. The point of motion is to learn to maintain the stillness of zz.

The things people often do to make their performance more "martial" in my opinion actually make the movement weaker than if proper Taijiquan principles were maintained.
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Re: Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Postby windwalker on Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:45 pm

A young CMA teacher that teaches standing as part of his practice.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDP3sfJCuI
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Re: Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:26 pm

A young CMA teacher that teaches standing as part of his practice.


The teacher is good. I would rather let the bird fly than squeeze the bird.
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Re: Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:03 pm

Yes nice stuff
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Re: Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Postby Giles on Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:12 am

Yes, lots of important basics in this video, very clearly expressed and shown. Nice metaphor with the building and the "elegant furnishings", too. :D
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Re: Misunderstanding of Tai Chi and How to Practice

Postby yeniseri on Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:27 am

Bao wrote:BTW, why people says that Yang Style should be less martial than other styles I have no idea about except that it can look soft. People who believe that a more external look should be more martial have completely missed the point about what makes Tai chi Tai chi and about martial aspects of Tai Chi in general.


I only wanted to say that the current expression of specifically Yangshitaijiquan is public health, relaxation and wellness only because the objective martial criteria, for all practical purposes, is lacking, missing, not really important, etc so it is not my view but it is what people have experienced. I may not agree with the MMA Xu fellow in all cases but he brings up an excellent point that there is alot of BS being marketed as 'martial' and that demeans an art in the long run.
That is the present reality! Everyone can see for themselves ;D

I love taijiquan though at my point in life, the names of the respective style tend to get dimmer over time. I salute one of my favourite teachers (I was/am a nobody student of Prof Zhang Dungsheng) and though our meeting was short, what I learnt /rememebred from that short term experience was his transformation of Zhangshitaijiquan (actually his version of Beijing24Yangshitaijiquan into a formidalbe jibengong based on his shuaijiao experience. Perhaps the alternative name for his short form would be Zhang24shishuaijiaotaijiquan ??? Even without the form itself, the conditioning is /would be excellent on its own without taolou representation.
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