Facing South

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Facing South

Postby everything on Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:59 pm

I'll actually start a different thread, but it makes me wonder about circle walking. Sure you can start and end facing a particular way, but you are going in a circle all of the time and "facing" somewhere from all directions.
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Re: Facing South

Postby Bao on Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:42 pm

everything wrote:I'll actually start a different thread, but it makes me wonder about circle walking. Sure you can start and end facing a particular way, but you are going in a circle all of the time and "facing" somewhere from all directions.


Exactly. The directions doesn't make sense. It's like we would write "turn to one o'clock" in a Tai chi manual. I am sure that people from other countries would interpret it as you should stand there and wait until the clock shows one o'clock before turning.

If you look at old manuals there are never left or right mentioned. Why? Again, instead they used the cardinal directions to express forward, back, left, right. This is also the reason why there is zhong (or zhongding). When you turn on the spot, you'll create four new directions and you need to start look at "South" from where your head is facing again.

This explanation makes much more sense IMO.
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Re: Facing South

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:05 pm

Bao wrote:
everything wrote:I'll actually start a different thread, but it makes me wonder about circle walking. Sure you can start and end facing a particular way, but you are going in a circle all of the time and "facing" somewhere from all directions.


Exactly. The directions doesn't make sense. It's like we would write "turn to one o'clock" in a Tai chi manual. I am sure that people from other countries would interpret it as you should stand there and wait until the clock shows one o'clock before turning.

If you look at old manuals there are never left or right mentioned. Why?
I think they do mention left right "The five elements are: advance (fire), retreat (water), step to the left (wood), step to the right (metal), and stay in the center (earth)."

Again, instead they used the cardinal directions to express forward, back, left, right. This is also the reason why there is zhong (or zhongding).
might want to check the meaning of what its used for...
When you turn on the spot, you'll create four new directions and you need to start look at "South" from where your head is facing again.

relative / absolute

This explanation makes much more sense IMO.




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THE EIGHT GATES & FIVE STEPS

方位 八門
position / gate:
掤 南 坎
warding off – S / ☵
捋 西 離
rolling back – W / ☲
擠 東 兑
pressing – E / ☱
按 北 震
pushing – N / ☳
採 西北 巽
plucking – NW / ☴
挒 東南 乾
rending – SE / ☰
肘 東北 坤
elbowing – NE / ☷
靠 西南 艮
bumping – SW / ☶

The positions of the eight gates are based on the principle of the passive and active aspects inverting each other, cycling round and round, following each other in their process. All of the four primary techniques [corresponding to the cardinal directions] and four secondary techniques [corresponding to the corner directions] must be understood. Warding off, rolling back, pressing, and pushing are the four primary techniques. Plucking, rending, elbowing, and bumping are the four secondary techniques. The combining of these cardinals and corners thus positions the trigrams.

The body makes its steps according to the five elements, bracing in all directions zhongding. The five elements are: advance (fire), retreat (water), step to the left (wood), step to the right (metal), and stay in the center (earth).

Advancing and retreating are the steppings of water and fire, left and right are the steppings of metal and wood, and the central earth is the axis for all of them.
Embrace the eight trigrams as you step through the five elements. Techniques plus steps equals eight plus five, amounting to thirteen, naturally expressed as the Thirteen Dynamics, known as the Eight Gates & Five Steps.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

The problem for some depends on the depth of practice, understanding, and how true it adheres to the theories and rational used by the old masters.




Appledog, had the good advice suggesting that until a certain level is reached for most it won't really matter...


Image

Brinkmann wrote :

Facing south is an astrological reference point which coincides with the human body in relation to Heavenly Stems and Earthly Branches.
It would be difficult to explain the theory in a short paragraph but it is based on an astro-cartography model used in fortune telling, fengshui,
Chinese medicine etc. In facing south, the body is seen to absorb solar energy through the ventral surfaces, while the energy circulating
in the back of the body expands, thus warding off the cold northern influences emanating from the north. Apparently the forbidden city was designed with this
geomantic principle is mind wherein the emperor sits, facing south with his back to the north. The "Great Wall" protects China from the pernicious( evil) cold influences
from the North. The back of the body (dorsal surfaces) thus protects the body in a similar fashion. The front of the body is therefore perceived to
contract the solar energy inward (closing) while the energy of the back is expanding (opening). The sides of the body (align with the east west axis) are then
perceived to pivot between the ventral closing and dorsal opening energetics. The body's meridian system is based on this 24 hour energy trine which is seen to open
(8 hours) pivot (8 hours) and close (8 hours) and is the basis for the body's12 part meridian structure or rather it energy circulation dynamics. The body in very simple terms
reflects this open, pivot and close energy dynamic according to its ventral, side and dorsal physical structure and to a greater degree its physiological functions.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Facing South

Postby Bao on Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:32 am

I think they do mention left right "The five elements are: advance (fire), retreat (water), step to the left (wood), step to the right (metal), and stay in the center (earth)."


Which means that this passage is not as old people believe that it is. It should be South, North, West, East if it was old. The classics were compiled, or maybe even written by, Wu Yuxiang.

Brinkmann over analyzes it. The simplest most logical solution tend to be true.

My explanation I gave is not something I made up, but comes from a very well respected Chinese scholar and professor who has read and examined a great deal of old original texts. I like his explanation as it makes sense and de-mystifies the superstition. It’s so simple and logic so I see no reason to not believe it.
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Re: Facing South

Postby LaoDan on Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:41 am

While there can be natural forces acting on us (like the sun, wind, magnetism, etc.), by far the major natural force is the vertical force of gravity. All others are minute in comparison. The properties of the front and back of one’s body are properties of one’s body, not the direction that one is facing.
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Re: Facing South

Postby windwalker on Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:43 am

Bao wrote:
I think they do mention left right "The five elements are: advance (fire), retreat (water), step to the left (wood), step to the right (metal), and stay in the center (earth)."


Which means that this passage is not as old people believe that it is. It should be South, North, West, East if it was old. The classics were compiled, or maybe even written by, Wu Yuxiang.

Brinkmann over analyzes it. The simplest most logical solution tend to be true.

My explanation I gave is not something I made up, but comes from a very well respected Chinese scholar and professor who has read and examined a great deal of old original texts. I like his explanation as it makes sense and de-mystifies the superstition. It’s so simple and logic so I see no reason to not believe it.



Brinkmann, outlines an explanation that IMO/IME falls in line with many of cultural sciences of the time
most of which underpins the practices of TCM/CMA .

As some have noted it really depends on ones depth of practice and how far they feel it is useful for their practice.
I would say they'rs nothing to "dy-mystify nor is it a superstition" just a different world view by which some view things by.
It is simple and very logical

concerning the statement about directions as to "what it should be"

we do know what was written regardless of when it was written,,,actually they did use left, right, ect...

There seems to be a problem with understanding what absolute verses relative means and how this is used
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Facing South

Postby greytowhite on Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:22 pm

I think it has to do with the Earth's electromagnetic field. The field is weaker in the north and solar radiation is harsher. Another thing to consider is that the highest energy light yet recorded was in Tibet and came from the Crab Nebula.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07 ... rab-nebula
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Re: Facing South

Postby wiesiek on Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:22 am

+1
and
circular motion/s/ of the Earth and rest of the Universe
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Re: Facing South

Postby Steve James on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:31 pm

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Re: Facing South

Postby Brinkman on Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:58 pm

South according to Stem and Branch theory, implies an upward angular bearing while North’s bearing is angling downward. But…these singular directions are in and of themselves, only a part of the bigger energetic picture, so in facing south, by default one’s back is to the North, while left side is to the East and right side to the West. The cardinal directions are as such, indicative of fixed positions (like Earth) whereby they are subject to the movement of time (Heaven), from a daily, seasonal or yearly perspective. In that context, South is fully activated at (sundial) noon and marks the zenith of the sun and the division point between the sun’s ascent in the east and descent in the west. In alchemical terms this correspond to heart fire and kidney water. Heart Fire and Kidney Water (shaoyin pivot) represent the core constituents of Taoist cultivation theory and practice. The essence of this directional framework however, is in understanding the movement of energy and physiology in terms of an energetic process conceived to open, close and pivot. The Human body is structured according to this traditional framework, wherein its dorsal and ventral surfaces respectively represent south and north, or ventral and dorsal, as well as the movement of Ti /Fang in relation to its pivotal spinal gate opening procedure…

Practically speaking, South, North, East and West, etc, only serve as a theoretical backdrop, in understanding the traditional principles of human cultivation and their relationship to martial arts. In researching Chinese internal martial arts and health cultivation in Asia, these basic astrological underpinnings are quintessential to conversing with practitioners. It would be difficult to come away with an understanding of most of the traditional sciences without some understanding of these terms. Such directional energetics are routinely drawn upon in discussing and formulating a practical strategy of practice. Accordingly, both cultivation, as well as martial principles are routinely extracted from this stem and branch model.
Last edited by Brinkman on Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Facing South

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:14 pm

When looking at a drawing of the bagua, South is on top because Chinese read maps by orienting themselves by facing to the south and laying out the map in front of them. We put north on the top of our maps since we face north when we’re reading a map, or blueprint.
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Re: Facing South

Postby Franklin on Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:14 am

in my experience.. this type of thing is unimportant until it become important
at that point it is not just a mental correspondence exercise... but something tangible



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Re: Facing South

Postby wiesiek on Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:04 am

My "Mzimu" O:) is tellin` me , that positioning follow the field/s/ of any kind has the meaning only when you`re meditating.
During the fighting form practice doesn`t matter, in fact is obvious.
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Re: Facing South

Postby GrahamB on Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:42 am

The midi-chlorians grivitate to the poles. Obvs.

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Re: Facing South

Postby wiesiek on Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:11 am

sure thing,
however, midichlorians are Jedi Knight attribute
are you Jedi , then ?
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