Waist movement

[johnwang]

GM Han Chin-Tang said that Taiji is all about "waist movement". IMO, besides combat, the waist movement is always good for health. I have added the waist movement in most of my daily training.

For example, When I move my waist

- to my right/left, my waist guides my rhino guard to my left/right.
- clockwise/counter-clockwise, my waist guides my left/right arm as outside in circle.

This way both the left-right and clockwise/counter-clockwise waist movement are both emphasized in my training.

Your thought?

[edededed]

Waist - yao (腰) or kua (胯)?

It is quite interesting to "play" with both parts (together or separately).

[D_Glenn]

In Baguazhang and Taiji the movement of the waist is about gaining control of your transverse abdominal muscles, which can be learned to contracted to turn the abdomen towards the right or to the left. The rest of your body can be linked to this small movement.

[suckinlhbf]

Chinese description is yao (腰) kua (胯). The focus is the KUA. Some people call the power from kua as dragon jin, and from spine as tiger jin. Combining kua and spine generates dragon tiger jin. The power is huge.

[D_Glenn]

Most people doing martial arts in the world are really only using a rudimentary Kua (edit Hip) power, if even that, usually just chest/trunk rotation and shoulders. It takes a lot of work to find and isolate the muscles of the waist. Having strong superficial abdominal rectus muscles (six pack abs) will often hide, or create a sort of static that gets in the way of one’s gaining somatic control of the deeper transverse abdominals.

[marvin8]

Chinese description is yao (腰) kua (胯). The focus is the KUA. Some people call the power from kua as dragon jin, and from spine as tiger jin. Combining kua and spine generates dragon tiger jin. The power is huge.

I would think rotation of waist, spine and opening/closing of kua would generate more power.

Most people doing martial arts in the world are really only using a rudimentary Kua power, if even that, usually just chest/trunk rotation and shoulders. It takes a lot of work to find and isolate the muscles of the waist. Having strong superficial abdominal rectus muscles (six pack abs) will often hide, or create a sort of static that gets in the way of one’s gaining somatic control of the deeper transverse abdominals.

It may depend on who's definition but, kua is not a muscle. How does using transverse abdominal muscles generate the most power? This seems contradictory to what edededed and suckinlhbf is describing. But, I may be misunderstanding.

[D_Glenn]

Re: Marvin
The TVA are what drives the waist (Yao) power.

Kua power is essentially the two femurs working in unison to turn the whole pelvis from side to side- hip(s) power.

[marvin8]

Most people doing martial arts in the world are really only using a rudimentary Kua power, if even that, usually just chest/trunk rotation and shoulders. It takes a lot of work to find and isolate the muscles of the waist. Having strong superficial abdominal rectus muscles (six pack abs) will often hide, or create a sort of static that gets in the way of one’s gaining somatic control of the deeper transverse abdominals.

Re: Marvin
The TVA are what drives the waist (Yao) power.

Kua power is essentially the two femurs working in unison to turn the whole pelvis from side to side- hip(s) power.

That's your definition. But, I don't believe you answered the question, "How does using transverse abdominal muscles generate the most power?"

Can you elaborate on "gaining somatic control of the deeper transverse abdominals?"

[wayne hansen]

I have said it many times here
Most can't tell the waist from the hips

[D_Glenn]

When it’s properly strengthened, it’s a really powerful muscle, it also plays a part in the flexion of the lumbar spine, so it’s also key to having a more powerful Fali. They control the 2 methods of the waist called Zhedie and Zhuanhuan. Establishing a connection between the linkage of all the soft tissues and muscles between the waist and the attacking arms is where the work is. Too lengthy to describe here. It’s called obtaining the six harmonies.

[marvin8]

When it’s properly strengthened, it’s a really powerful muscle, it also plays a part in the flexion of the lumbar spine, so it’s also key to having a more powerful Fali. They control the 2 methods of the waist called Zhedie and Zhuanhuan. Establishing a connection between the linkage of all the soft tissues and muscles between the waist and the attacking arms is where the work is. Too lengthy to describe here. It’s called obtaining the six harmonies.

Again, that is a definition. I have read your RSF threads such as "Dantian Power," which is appreciated. However, it doesn't answer the question.

IOW, how is Zhedie and Zhuanhuan "more powerful" than "combining kua and spine" as explained by suckinlhbf?

[D_Glenn]

Kua/Hip power can also be trained to produce a big power, which can be harmonized with the waist and impart a greater power. The upper torso and spine can also be trained to have its own power. If you consider the waist to be the lower Dantian power, then the chest is the power of the middle Dantian. If you’re emphasizing the power of the middle dantian, then the rotational power (zhuanhuan), of the waist, doesn’t really have to be strong. But, the Fali/ lumbar power (Zhedie) can still be added to the middle Dantian power.

In Baguazhang this chest power (aka Han Li) is also considered part of the Dragon, but it’s the Li Trigram Rooster that really uses this dragon power to the extreme.

.

[marvin8]

Kua/Hip power can also be trained to produce a big power, which can be harmonized with the waist and impart a greater power. The upper torso and spine can also be trained to have its own power. If you consider the waist to be the lower Dantian power, then the chest is the power of the middle Dantian. If you’re emphasizing the power of the middle dantian, then the rotational power (zhuanhuan), of the waist, doesn’t really have to be strong. But, the Fali/ lumbar power (Zhedie) can still be added to the middle Dantian power.

In Baguazhang this chest power (aka Han Li) is also considered part of the Dragon, but it’s the Li Trigram Rooster that really uses this dragon power to the extreme.

.

I still don't believe you answered the question. You stated most "MAists in the world have rudimentary kua power" while Zhedie and Zhuanhuan are "more powerful."

IOW, how is this "Zhedie movement of the Dantian and spine as can be seen Chen Yu's solo 'Fa Li' (Issuing of power), while standing in place, at @ 00:25 to 01:07” "more powerful" than "combining kua and spine" as explained by suckinlhbf?

[D_Glenn]

I never said that it was “ “more powerful “ “. You’re the one who wrote that. So I’m not going to answer a question about a statement that I never even made.


I should clarify that the only way to Fali is by using the TVA and movement of the lumbar sacrum and tailbone, but that’s considered moving and using the waist (lumbar is Yaobei - waistback/ back of the waist).

[marvin8]

I never said that it was “ “more powerful “ “. You’re the one who wrote that. So I’m not going to answer a question about a statement that I never even made.


I should clarify that the only way to Fali is by using the TVA and movement of the lumbar sacrum and tailbone, but that’s considered moving and using the waist (lumbar is Yaobei - waistback/ back of the waist).

Well I asked about these statements you wrote, "so it’s (TVA) also key to having a more powerful Fali" and "Most people doing martial arts in the world are really only using a rudimentary Kua power."

Chen Yu's fali ("zhedie") is more push-like than other whole body, throw-like movements. So, I was curious to read your answer.

When it’s (TVA) properly strengthened, it’s a really powerful muscle, it also plays a part in the flexion of the lumbar spine, so it’s also key to having a more powerful Fali. They control the 2 methods of the waist called Zhedie and Zhuanhuan.

Most people doing martial arts in the world are really only using a rudimentary Kua power, if even that, usually just chest/trunk rotation and shoulders. It takes a lot of work to find and isolate the muscles of the waist. Having strong superficial abdominal rectus muscles (six pack abs) will often hide, or create a sort of static that gets in the way of one’s gaining somatic control of the deeper transverse abdominals.