No intention is real intention

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

No intention is real intention

Postby Yeung on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:49 am

A quote from Li Cunyi 李存义:
Fist without fist, intention without intention, no intention is real intention.
拳无拳,意无意,无意之中是真意
Quán wú quán, yì wúyì, wúyì zhī zhōng shì zhēnyì
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby Giles on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:38 am

Yeah, fortune cookie time. :)

OK:
Let the other guy decide – you just reframe his decision.

Sail before the wind, sail close to the wind – don’t try to sail against the wind.

Say “You’re absolutely right, but please excuse me when I add something.”

Gravity doesn’t have to choose but is always right. Use gravity.
(Be gravity, my friend)

A well-oiled weathervane never has to decide. But it never falls off its tower.

Always go forward, even when yielding. Never go against, even when intercepting.

Accepting the opponent’s energy is just as much a matter of the heart as of the body. Even more so when it’s coming hard and fast.

and:
Tai Chi is patience boxing. (Koh Ah Tee)
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:47 am

I always thought that was a sun Lu tang quote

Boxing no boxing
Mind no mind
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby wiesiek on Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:31 am

aha
something like
yes without yes
or
no without no
Joyful Fruits of the Live
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby Yeung on Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:34 am

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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby Bao on Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:25 am

Like that quote. My favorite Yi quote is from Hao Weizhen, he explains it better but the meaning is the same: ”If you are able to use intention to attack the opponent, then after long experience, even intention does not need to be applied, for the body standards will always be conformed to.“

IMO, Yi should be there in the body regardless what you do. You shouldn’t need to remember to use Yi or think “now I should Yi”. It’s just like using whole body movement, you don’t need to think about any individual body part, everything should be arranged by itself when moving. Yi and mind will be arranged as well without thinking about it. Everything together as a whole.
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby johnwang on Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:49 pm

I agree with 100% on this. I have always believed that the power/speed that you think you can generate is not your real power/speed. The power/speed that you can generate "without thinking" will be your true power/speed. When I train, I like to keep my mind blank.

One time I sparred with a boxer. He charged in with full speed and tried to knock my head of. Suddenly he dropped down right in front of me with few broken ribs. What had just happened was my leg kick out without think and he ran into my kick. My kick was not controlled by my mind. My kick was controlled by my body natural reflection.

I have always told my students, "Do think, just do it."
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:52 pm

I wonder if this is a saying that’s specific to Xingyiquan. In that they train so that their whole body is a like a fist. The intention is already out before they start to move at you, and you, on the receiving side can only backpedal.
Bagua on the other hand, seeks to have the whole body like the palm of a hand. The palm can be cupped and pull Intention inside and you don’t feel anything, or the palm can be pressing outward and you feel something similar to what the Xingyiquan guy is emanating.
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby Yeung on Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:34 am



Sorry, the statement of 'no intention is real intention' was not find in Paul Brennan's translation. I think he was using a later edition. I think the following is an earlier edition but only in Chinese, and that statement is in the second chapter:

http://www.idogicat.com/wcs/Kungfu/LiCu ... uanPu.html
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby Yeung on Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:05 am

wayne hansen wrote:I always thought that was a sun Lu tang quote

Boxing no boxing
Mind no mind


Quoted by Sun Lutang in 'Guo Yunshen said' Part 13 of his Authentic Explanation of Martial Arts Concepts (1924), translated by Paul Brennan (2103):

It says in the Boxing Classics: “The boxing is without boxing. The intention is without intention. Within no intention is true intention.” In achieving this, you will attain the virtue of being silent and undetectable. An ancestor’s poem goes:

The method is essentially naturalness, a single energy flowing along.
Your state of emptiness and stillness is the hardest thing for the opponent to read.
He can try countless ways of attack but all of them will be useless,
for your body’s shape responds just like a river current.
Last edited by Yeung on Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby Yeung on Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:18 am

The water simile of Laozi works.
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby richardman on Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:28 pm

I like this one attributed to Guo Yunshen
有形有意都是假,拳到無心方見奇

(If your martial arts) has form or intention, those are not the truth. When you fight without mind/intent, then you will see the miraculous.
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby Tatanka on Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:16 pm

D_Glenn wrote:I wonder if this is a saying that’s specific to Xingyiquan. In that they train so that their whole body is a like a fist. The intention is already out before they start to move at you, and you, on the receiving side can only backpedal.
Bagua on the other hand, seeks to have the whole body like the palm of a hand. The palm can be cupped and pull Intention inside and you don’t feel anything, or the palm can be pressing outward and you feel something similar to what the Xingyiquan guy is emanating.


Word. But what's the difference between fists and palms?
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby windwalker on Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:01 pm

The intention is already out before they start to move at you, and you, on the receiving side can only backpedal.



If one truly understands what intent is, and is able to use it.

They should also understand the need to hide it.

There is a saying about
lightning and thunder.
If one can move it means they've heard the thunder.
On the other hand if one is hit by lightning the dead can't move.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: No intention is real intention

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:40 am

Your state of emptiness and stillness is the hardest thing for the opponent to read


I think the "following" is harder to read. Go with and follow their movements so your opponent is leading you to response. They are fighting with themselves.
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