Evasion?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Evasion?

Postby dspyrido on Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:53 pm

Is it correct to say that stand up evasion is not a refined specialisation in CMA like sticking, strikes, chin-na etc? (ie the careful categorisation and training of a method like 100s of kick variations, push hand routines, chin-na methods etc.)

Yes there are examples of ducking or swaying but I have not seen it anywhere near as refined as boxing or how other methods are treated. Also the only "CMA" instructors that I've seen with a focus on this had a solid sanda/sports fighting background.

Other examples or is it a correct assumption?

(Note ground rolling methods like tumble boxing or monkey have something in this space but the question is around into standing evasions)
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Re: Evasion?

Postby everything on Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:51 pm

I thought baguazhang is known to have excellent evasiveness with its agile stepping and angle changes.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby johnwang on Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:34 am

When someone punches you, you can

1. dodge, or
2. block and wrap his punching arm.

IMO, 2 > 1. You just can't dodge your opponent to death. Evasion is too conservative way of thinking.

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Re: Evasion?

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:44 am

I agree with Mr. Wang. In unarmed fighting I'd rather trap something than avoid it. That is the true strength of CMA and the reason why I get to tired of practitioners claiming to train CMA but not being able to do this. You should know that most of the techniques in XYLHQ plow through an opponent's defenses and possibly make contact with their arms on the way in to control them before delivering that powerful strike/s.

Your body and arms constantly being in motion negates the need to avoid. There's always going to be something between you and them. In armed fighting, where the stakes are higher, avoiding is much more important, but even then trapping, called binding here, can still be a good option. Isn't it funny that binding is seen as being high level fighting but trapping is "fake"?

Oh, and I agree about Baguazhang. It was always impressive how my Master could get behind me.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby Wuji on Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:54 am

I train Xin Yi Liu He Quan, and agree with what Maartin said.

Our base footwork is trained to teach you to drive straight through someone. To kick them in the shin/knee them in the groin/stomach, to step on their foot, hold them in place, and then plow through them. A large percentage of the shapes we do with our footwork have a clearing/moving/pushing down of the arms. chicken/Rooster Shape, something that you can find a ton of videos on Youtube of, is a good example. The front arm makes an actual shield, rolling forward. This rolls forward with the hips rotating too, not just the forward momentum from the Chicken Stepping. This alone will bash through someone. If you stepped on their foot in the process, you probably broke their ankle. If you add the ending movement of this shape, as if you were doing it on the spot, the arms continue to press forward, and then down. I would go as far as to say that the majority of what we do has this in the shape somewhere (the downward dragging).

XYLHQ also has agility work too, you just have to know where to find it. We have a routine that uses two people for body bouncing. It uses Eagle and specific stepping to attach at an angle, and to work on agile footwork that has you stepping around your partner. You can also find videos of this online. It almost becomes a kind of game you play with your partner. "Swallow Skims The Water" is a good example of evasion. You can setup a rope, and do this movement back and fourth under the rope. This is very similar to what boxers have done for a long time.

Lastly, not all forms of Gong Fu will you see evasions commonly taught, because it was more focused on in the Sanda/sparring work. XYLHQ is a good example of old school Gongfu. It's dirty boxing. None of that "my moves are too lethal to practice" crap. You don't chicken step, hold onto your partners foot, and hurt them. If you train like that, you won't have training partners for long. Most of the really good gongfu teachers I know also have their students spar on the side. You can't always spar with what you learn. You learn to evade, dodge, weave, etc., from actually fighting. Move or get hit. Though like Maarten originally said, not all martial arts have the concept of evasion at it's core. A XYLHQ player would much rather mow you over then spend time playing whack-a-mole.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:07 am

Taijiquan as I understand it is built around sophisticated evasion.
Sophisticated in that it is often a matter of millimeters and nanoseconds more so than feet and seconds.

The Maxim "be evasive, avoid conflict" is baked into the core philosophy and applies in daily life as well as combat.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby Steve James on Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:24 am

For me, "evasion" is just another way to say "defense." That means how not to get hit or caught. Sure, offense --hitting first-- is a good form of defense. That's if one can hit hard enough without getting hit or caught. Some people don't worry about defense because they think it's your problem. That's the difference between a Tyson and a Foreman.

I agree with John W that evasion is not enough --to win a fight. Forget that evading the fight in the first place would be ideal. If we're talking about sports combat, the object is to hit or grab the other guy. Ok, what happens if you're not bigger and stronger than your opponent. Evasion seems to be useful, if not essential.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuKnKbENpjY
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Re: Evasion?

Postby johnwang on Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:01 pm

CMA is not you move in, I move back. CMA is you move in, I move in too.

Here is some examples of the opposite of the evasion.



I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Evasion?

Postby robert on Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:59 pm

In Chen family taiji they say, to enter is to dodge, to dodge is to enter. In the slow form of Chen and Yang taiji ward off is one of the first applications in the form and it is also the first of the eight techniques. Ward off is evading a strike. That's the first application I learned in Chen taiji - don't get hit ;) In taiji, in general, evasion is accomplished by neutralizing. That's a big part of taiji.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby .Q. on Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:33 am

I personally prefer to evade and bridge at the same time. My reflex is pretty bad so I can't rely on doing only one or the other.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:16 pm

Some people think tai chi is Hsing I
It is not
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Evasion?

Postby dspyrido on Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:31 pm

Saying that CMA likes to tie up and control before striking is also what boxing does. Yet in boxing they still like spend a lot of time getting head movement and mobility working:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSX0PCQXiO4&feature=youtu.be

This is so that it sets up the counter attacks & timing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3IPe0OL5TY&feature=youtu.be

As does MT, kickboxing & sanda:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ylWvwDNsPA&feature=youtu.be

Saying that bagua, TC, XY or any other CMA style has evasion is not much use unless the training involves drilling it properly. We can find evasion moves in these systems but think about where hand contact sticking is drilled how much time is spent on this vs. how much time is spent on evasion in the same system. It's almost negligible.

Marteen & Wuji - in XYLH & in XY at a fundamental yes we see a lot more trampling & clashing until at a later stage when more nimble evasive moves are taught. Sparring tends to be introduced at a later stage but the careful introduction of evasion is not. Students are taught a few moves but the drilling and refinement which is seen in boxing, kickboxing & so forth (from the beginning) is not the same. Senior students usually have to work it out themselves.

In general CMA systems have a lot of drills and a lot of documented practices for areas of specialisation like sticking, strikes, chinna etc. They are even richer than most styles. But when it comes to evasion it almost feels like:

"Yes we have it. Here are a few moves. Now you fill in the rest."

I have not found a level of refinement has gone into evasion. Yes the forms have it hidden in plain sight but it's the drilling and perfection that I have not seen that rivals the more sports like arts.

Is this a correct assumption or are there counter examples?
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Re: Evasion?

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:42 pm

I have not found a level of refinement has gone into evasion. Yes the forms have it hidden in plain sight but it's the drilling and perfection that I have not seen that rivals the more sports like arts.

Is this a correct assumption or are there counter examples?


It might be correct within your experience, this is not a "counter" example to your experience , it's an example of my experience.
hop gar uses evasion as part of its strategies coupled with its own unique approach to fighting,,,
worked quite well against boxers and boxing type styles.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR3lMluKAAw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R05nXdLSCk
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Re: Evasion?

Postby dspyrido on Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:54 pm

windwalker wrote:It might be correct within your experience, this is not a "counter" example to your experience , it's an example of my experience.
hop gar uses evasion as part of its strategies coupled with its own unique approach to fighting,,,
worked quite well against boxers and boxing type styles.


Never studied Hop Gar so I'll have a look around.

The move in the 1st video was something similar I learn in Wing Chun many years ago. But the irony is this was shown to me by an instructor who had an kickboxing/escrima background and was helping me prep for a tournament.

Similarly many years ago I had cross trained with other CMA guys coming from Choy Li Fut and Hop Gar. But when we gloved up and where sparring they (much like me) would admit it was kickboxing.

A few decades back I was amazed to see a guy who did white eyebrow (pak mei) do a fantastic job of evading and countering strikes in a kickboxing match. I sought him out and he said most of the stuff he did he learnt in boxing. Sigh. White eyebrow apparently liked taking a lot more impact on the way in and then smashing the opponent.

As mentioned styles have some evasion but it is the focus that does not seem to come into play. For context sport styles like boxing, kickboxing & sports MT all bring evasion into focus with a massive amount of training of leg work, running & skipping. Ducks, weaves, sways and rolls taught early on as a means of defense (that does not remove blocks or parrys but adds to them).

As a note - the David Ross (2nd) video you posted is not an evasion one. It shows a setup for a takedown (sensible move and nice that he acknowledges the inspiration for it to Randy Couture).
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Re: Evasion?

Postby Bao on Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:35 pm

As a note - the David Ross (2nd) video you posted is not an evasion one. It shows a setup for a takedown (sensible move and nice that he acknowledges the inspiration for it to Randy Couture).


But it’s still a way to avoid strikes. Let the other one block or avoid your strikes and punches as a set up to enter. It’s a better approach than passively avoiding strikes IMO.
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