Evasion?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Evasion?

Postby .Q. on Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:45 am

In general probably very few CMA styles train evasion as extensively as boxing. I'm guessing it's because moves that can be completely evaded constitute a lower percentage of what they would encounter. If boxers have to watch out for low round kicks and leg grabs you can bet they would have to spend less time on head slipping and use some of that time on training to defend against those instead. In fact certain types of head slipping are very dangerous if people are not going by boxing rules. As an actual example, when I first started MT I didn't know what to do when people slipped to the outside of my jabs. After a while it dawned on me I can just do a lead leg snap kick to the side they're dodging. Their head would lean into the kick as they slip. Funny thing is that I did the motion on a few people but because it's hard to see and I always held back from actually making contact (I don't trust my leg control) only 1 guy noticed and talked to me about it.
This is not a knock on boxing or a claim that evasion is not important. It's actually a very important skill to have but completely clean evasion constitutes a smaller percentage of possible defenses against the scenarios CMAs are designed for.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:16 am

dspyrido wrote:Saying that CMA likes to tie up and control before striking is also what boxing does. Yet in boxing they still like spend a lot of time getting head movement and mobility working:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSX0PCQXiO4&feature=youtu.be

This is so that it sets up the counter attacks & timing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3IPe0OL5TY&feature=youtu.be

As does MT, kickboxing & sanda:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ylWvwDNsPA&feature=youtu.be

Saying that bagua, TC, XY or any other CMA style has evasion is not much use unless the training involves drilling it properly. We can find evasion moves in these systems but think about where hand contact sticking is drilled how much time is spent on this vs. how much time is spent on evasion in the same system. It's almost negligible.

Marteen & Wuji - in XYLH & in XY at a fundamental yes we see a lot more trampling & clashing until at a later stage when more nimble evasive moves are taught. Sparring tends to be introduced at a later stage but the careful introduction of evasion is not. Students are taught a few moves but the drilling and refinement which is seen in boxing, kickboxing & so forth (from the beginning) is not the same. Senior students usually have to work it out themselves.

In general CMA systems have a lot of drills and a lot of documented practices for areas of specialisation like sticking, strikes, chinna etc. They are even richer than most styles. But when it comes to evasion it almost feels like:

"Yes we have it. Here are a few moves. Now you fill in the rest."

I have not found a level of refinement has gone into evasion. Yes the forms have it hidden in plain sight but it's the drilling and perfection that I have not seen that rivals the more sports like arts.

Is this a correct assumption or are there counter examples?

Let's be honest, though.. MOST people that train CMA, including in China, couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag and most of the ones that can don't even use their art when they do fight. I agree with you that higher level practitioners will evade more, but this is because they have perfected the timing and distance through their fighting experience. I still stand by my statement that most CMA don't care about evading as much because they are more interested in trapping. The kind of trapping found in boxing is quite superficial compared to the sophisticated techniques, drills and power training methods that are found in CMA. Without the drills and power training methods not much of it works. Many teachers that actually know this focus on forms and staying ahead of their students, hence few achieve any success. Quite unfortunate...
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Re: Evasion?

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:12 am

I think even the first video illustrates that boxers don't just move their heads to evade. There are several styles, but all move their whole body to move the head. I that cmas tend to use rules that may be partly aesthetic. It doesn't "look" traditional to bend the body or "bob" the head. So, there's often no incentive to learn systems that do. I'm not saying it's necessary.

Afa the kicking thing, I agree that a conventional boxer's legs are easy to attack. Other than that, boxers bob (duck) for a reason, so I'm no sure that good ones can't defend against kicks to the head or torso. At any rate, I think it's better to look at it from the perspective of what boxing has to offer. Every mma champ or contender has a boxing coach. Apart from gaining any skills, they learn boxing strategies and how they can be neutralized.

Ya know, tcc theory says, if there's a problem, fix it by moving the legs and waist. For me, that means fixed-step is only for training.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:45 pm

Boxing is not so much about what you train but how you train
Train tai chi with the intensity of a boxer and it will take care of itself
Evasion is what pushing,Ta Lu and San shou are all about
It is even further emphasised in the two man weapon sets
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Evasion?

Postby johnwang on Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:39 pm

If you can hide your head behind your rhino guard, you don't need evasion. When a rhino runs toward you, it's you that need to evade.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Evasion?

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:30 pm

Okay, watch D'amato's "peek a boo" style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGNV2RKcFFI
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Re: Evasion?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:11 pm

dspyrido wrote:Yes there are examples of ducking or swaying but I have not seen it anywhere near as refined as boxing or how other methods are treated. Also the only "CMA" instructors that I've seen with a focus on this had a solid sanda/sports fighting background.

High level boxing is less about "mobility, evasion and dodging" than rolling and pulling away from punches while being in position (e.g., close enough to stick and follow, angles) to deliver offense. "Head movement" is more about whole body movement—using whole body movement to move the head off line while positioning (yielding/sinking) to strike back.

Regarding comparisons, MMA with it's open rulesets and longer fighting range is closer to CMA than boxing. MMA does less "ducking and weaving" than boxing to avoid dangerous knee attacks, etc. MMA/boxing is similar to tai chi, etc., in concept and strategy by using yielding/sinking/rotating (e.g., ward off, roll back) to use an opponent's force against themselves. "Lure the opponent in, let him hit the void, close then immediately open.”—Yin Jin, Luo Kong, He Ji Chu.

johnwang wrote:When someone punches you, you can

1. dodge, or
2. block and wrap his punching arm.

IMO, 2 > 1. You just can't dodge your opponent to death. Evasion is too conservative way of thinking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPglUktXZo0

One can yield (e.g., roll back) and issue or simultaneously slip (yield) and punch to use an opponent's force against himself. Your "rhino 1" video only shows pushing with rhino guard. You just can't push with rhino guard (as in your video) your opponent to death. Although you promised, my requests to see a video of block and arm wrap before a normal speed punch is retracted has went unanswered.

You took the video excerpt of Bas Rutten's "Lethal Street Fighting" out of context. He says "block and wrap" might work against people who "are drunk and come with that big haymaker." (Why spend time practicing for drunk people?). Prior to that, Bas says and demonstrates what works most of the time is “Step to the side (yield), let him miss and boom connect with the right straight or palm strike. It is that easy:”

Image

johnwang wrote:If you can hide your head behind your rhino guard, you don't need evasion. When a rhino runs toward you, it's you that need to evade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO8sLZvNf90

One needs more than just "hide your head" to defend themselves. One needs to defend against attacks to knees, groin, rhino guard, etc, then punch to head (low/high strategy).
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:14 pm

Image

Brush hand twist step. :)
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Re: Evasion?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:08 pm

johnwang wrote:When a rhino runs toward you, it's you that need to evade.


I like to think that if someone is rushing then it creates more opportunity. I am not saying that smothering, crushing and flattening an opponent is a bad thing but sometimes evasion is the perfect response to it.



Evasion begins with learning to not be hit and then evolves to include setting up the perfect counter attack.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby johnwang on Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:14 am

marvin8 wrote: Although you promised, my requests to see a video of block and arm wrap before a normal speed punch is retracted has went unanswered.

Will you consider this clip to be "normal speed punch"?



It's faster than all of the following clips.





Last edited by johnwang on Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby johnwang on Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:15 am

You have asked that rhino guard used in sparring (one guy does try to hit the other guy), and I had put up this clip.



Here is another clip to show that we do train in normal speed.

Last edited by johnwang on Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:11 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote: Although you promised, my requests to see a video of block and arm wrap before a normal speed punch is retracted has went unanswered.

Is this clip "fast" enough?

Image

It's not the speed. Your student does not retract his punch/right jab (leaves his arm out) while your other student blocks, hops in, arms wraps, head locks and performs diagonal cut. In your "rhino 2" video, your student retracts his punch:
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:before the arm is retracted?

This is why the arm wrap should be done when your opponent tries to punch you. The window can be small and special skill/strategy will be needed.

rhino 2:
Image

johnwang wrote:You have asked that rhino guard used in sparring (one guy does try to hit the other guy), and I had put up this clip.

No, I did not. I asked to see your "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" demonstration, but against a retracted punch.

johnwang wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjWxAqjAB84

In the above video, there is no "block and wrap his punching arm" as you described in this thread and in the past. As you say, "You just can't block your opponent to death. Blocking is too conservative:"
johnwang wrote:When someone punches you, you can

1. dodge, or
2. block and wrap his punching arm.

IMO, 2 > 1. You just can't dodge your opponent to death. Evasion is too conservative way of thinking.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby dspyrido on Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:03 pm

If I piece together the videos its clear that JW method is a clashing guard. It will take impact of light retracted punches by getting in the way and moving in until range is compressed and grappling can happen. If an arm is left hanging then wrapping is pretty easy. This approach is similar to head shell and other clashing guards.

I'll divert from evasion to ask - how does the rhino guard handle kicks?
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Re: Evasion?

Postby johnwang on Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:05 pm

dspyrido wrote:If I piece together the videos its clear that JW method is a clashing guard. It will take impact of light retracted punches by getting in the way and moving in until range is compressed and grappling can happen. If an arm is left hanging then wrapping is pretty easy. This approach is similar to head shell and other clashing guards.

I'll divert from evasion to ask - how does the rhino guard handle kicks?

When your opponent punches at you, you move in with rhino guard to separate his arms away from his head (drill a hole between his arms). The goal is to crash your shoulders against your opponent's shoulders. You can headbutt on your opponent's face, or you can move your head next to his head and achieve a head lock, or double overhooks (double arm wrap).

By using rhino guard, you can move in during your opponent's punch with less fear (because your head is well protected). Your opponent may kicks you, it will give you a chance to

- catch his kicking leg with one arm.
- push his neck/shoulder with another hand, and

take him down.
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Re: Evasion?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:26 pm

johnwang wrote:When your opponent punches at you, you move in with rhino guard to separate his arms away from his head (drill a hole between his arms).

However if the opponent retracts his punches, there will be no extended arms to "separate away from his head or drill between."

In your "rhino 2" video below, your student punches (jab, straight, uppercut, etc.) one at a time while retracting his punches (normal):
Image

In your "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video below, your student does not retract his right jab, but leaves it extended (not normal).

If instead your student punched like he did in "rhino 2," he would jab, retract it and your other student would separate his arms. At this point, your student would punch your other student's head with a straight left and right uppercut.
Image

Don't get why you wouldn't post (as promised) a "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" demonstration video against a retracted punch(es), making it easier to understand.
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