Evasion?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Evasion?

Postby johnwang on Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:13 am

marvin8 wrote:Don't get why you wouldn't post (as promised) a "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" demonstration video against a retracted punch(es), making it easier to understand.

By using your logic, you may also ask these questions:

Don't get why you wouldn't post a

- "hip throw" demonstration video against an opponent with extreme low horse stance,
- "leg catch" demonstration video against an opponent who can pull his kick back faster that your hand can advance,
- "face punch" demonstration video against an opponent who can move back faster that you can move forward,
- ...

The simple answer to your question is I can't put up a clip to show a strategy when the opportunity is not there.

When you try to separate your rhino guard to wrap on your opponent's arms, you need to sense his intention and speed. If you can sense that your arm speed may be slower than his arm speed (you may wrap into the thin air), you will maintain your rhino guard and wait for next better opportunity for arm wrapping.

In the beginning, you may be able to wrap your opponent's arms within 10 punches. The more that you train, that number will be reduced. When you can wrap your opponent arms within 4 punches, you are pretty good IMO.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9116
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Evasion?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:31 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Don't get why you wouldn't post (as promised) a "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" demonstration video against a retracted punch(es), making it easier to understand.

By using your logic, you may also ask these questions:

Don't get why you wouldn't post a . . .

- "face punch" demonstration video against an opponent who can move back faster that you can move forward,

We already agreed the punch speed is the same as your student demonstrates in your "rhino 2" video. There is only one variable change in your "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" demonstration: your student retracts his punch.

johnwang wrote:The simple answer to your question is I can't put up a clip to show a strategy when the opportunity is not there.

You already said you can and promised you will "put up a clip:"
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Do you have a normal speed video of anyone (e.g., you, your students, anyone else) using this "special skill/strategy to arm wrap during this small window," before the arm is retracted?

I don't have such clip at this moment. But I promise that I'll put one up the moment that I can get one.

It appears you are over complicating this.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Evasion?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:55 am

No, he isn't. I'd tell you to go try it yourself, but you will probably fail and report back that it doesn't work. It requires specialised power training methods and drilling to work. Sounds a lot like the art you claim to train, doesn't it? Why is it that you can't grasp these simple concepts? Taijiquan has a lot of similar techniques, Yunshou being the first that comes to mind. This is something that you already know, yet you continually post boxing videos. I respect boxing, but CMA are quite different in both technique and application.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2130
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Lansing, Michigan

Re: Evasion?

Postby LaoDan on Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:27 am

Since the thread has drifted a bit, I would just like to agree with the following:
wayne hansen wrote:Evasion is what pushing,Ta Lu and San shou are all about
It is even further emphasised in the two man weapon sets

I would add that my understanding is that TJQ prefers evading without disengaging, that is we prefer staying within counterattacking range when we evade rather than jumping out of range. This is even more evident in the two man saber/dao sets where the opponent’s weapons may not even make contact but, since a sharp weapon can cut the body, we need to evade by moving our body. But we do not want to move too far such that we cannot counterattack from the range that we evade to. We want an opponent’s attack to make them vulnerable to a counterattack, and we want to remain close enough to be able to do so. This same principle is reflected with other weapon types as well as when not using weapons, although it seems the most obvious when using dao (at least for the partner forms that I have learned).
LaoDan
Huajing
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Evasion?

Postby johnwang on Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:14 pm

marvin8 wrote:You already said you can and promised you will "put up a clip:"

Since I'm in California right now and my students are in Texas, I have just sent them an E-mail for such clip. When they send that clip to me, I will post it here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next time when you 2 meet, could you 2 make a 2 minutes video and send to me.

In the

- 1st minute, A throws punches at B's head. B tries to use rhino guard to deal with. B then tries to achieve arm wrap head lock during A's punches. When B can achieve that, the match stop, next round will start.

- 2nd minute, A and B just reverse the position.

When one tries to achieve arm wrap head lock, the other guy will pull his punch back in normal combat speed (not to let his arm to hang there).

We need to record after how many punches that you can use your rhino guard to achieve a successful head lock.

We need to accumulate more data such as:

Can you achieve head lock within

- 10 punches?
- 8 punches,
- 6 punches,
- 4 punches?
- 2 punches?
- …

Send me the clip after you have done it. Take more than 2 minutes if needed.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9116
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Evasion?

Postby johnwang on Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:02 pm

MaartenSFS wrote: I respect boxing, but CMA are quite different in both technique and application.

When one of my friends said that boxing is like CMA 2,000 years ago when CMA was still in the stone age. his comment make me to think. Should I agree with him, or should I disagree with him?

IMO, the major difference between boxing and CMA is:

- A boxing punch is just a punch.
- A CMA punch is a punch followed by a pull (to set up clinch).

Just this simple difference, CMA is much more advance than boxig.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9116
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Evasion?

Postby dspyrido on Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:56 pm

LaoDan wrote:Since the thread has drifted a bit, I would just like to agree with the following:
wayne hansen wrote:Evasion is what pushing,Ta Lu and San shou are all about
It is even further emphasised in the two man weapon sets

I would add that my understanding is that TJQ prefers evading without disengaging, that is we prefer staying within counterattacking range when we evade rather than jumping out of range. This is even more evident in the two man saber/dao sets where the opponent’s weapons may not even make contact but, since a sharp weapon can cut the body, we need to evade by moving our body. But we do not want to move too far such that we cannot counterattack from the range that we evade to. We want an opponent’s attack to make them vulnerable to a counterattack, and we want to remain close enough to be able to do so. This same principle is reflected with other weapon types as well as when not using weapons, although it seems the most obvious when using dao (at least for the partner forms that I have learned).


I agree - weapons are probably the greatest source of inspiration for evasion training in CMA.

Where it gets tricky. 99% of TC people will walk up, touch hands and start to push and weave at a gentle pace. Ok let's clear out the decks which leave us with the 1% that practice real TC.

So asking everyone here.... (not just picking on you LaoDan):

- Is there a specific set of evasion drills that you have about getting into the touch range?
- Once in range do you pressure test eg you try sticking and evading a person who is wearing a pair of boxing gloves and throwing random, fast punches?
- Beyond just boxing type evasion is kicking or even learning to evade someone reaching to grab head or legs a part of the patterns?

Appreciate any video showing broader types of evasion vs. evasion done in push hands following a set pattern.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Evasion?

Postby johnwang on Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:13 pm

LaoDan wrote:Since the thread has drifted a bit,...

We can't talk about evasion without talking about

- head on collision, and
- body entangle.

You just can't evade if the clinch has been established.

Last edited by johnwang on Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9116
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Evasion?

Postby LaoDan on Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:46 am

dspyrido wrote:So asking everyone here.... (not just picking on you LaoDan):

- Is there a specific set of evasion drills that you have about getting into the touch range?
- Once in range do you pressure test eg you try sticking and evading a person who is wearing a pair of boxing gloves and throwing random, fast punches?
- Beyond just boxing type evasion is kicking or even learning to evade someone reaching to grab head or legs a part of the patterns?

Appreciate any video showing broader types of evasion vs. evasion done in push hands following a set pattern.

Since maintaining a desired distance is difficult, it would be good to have specific drills to practice this. Unfortunately I do not know of any. The range idea is practiced in the choreographed partner forms that I know, but putting it into practice has, for me, only been through free play. I especially like trying the spacing idea against people who practice other styles that are more used to jumping in and out of range, like many striking oriented arts do and, for weapons, like sport fencers typically do.

While starting practice from contact is fairly common (even in sword/jian training), I view it as training the reading and understanding of the instant of interaction. To listen and understand the instant of interaction, one should spend a lot of time training to sense what is happening during contact. But to me the goal is to shorten the length of time needed for understanding until one can assess the situation upon initial contact. So I also practice from non-contact, trying to understand and control the situation at the moment of engagement/contact. This is not easy, but it is my goal.

I do not have sparring videos of myself, so I will use the following Traditional Chinese Sword League videos as examples.





The first video is closer to how I try to practice. The second video has more of a jumping in and out of range flavor.
LaoDan
Huajing
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Evasion?

Postby LaoDan on Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:48 am

johnwang wrote:
LaoDan wrote:Since the thread has drifted a bit,...

We can't talk about evasion without talking about

- head on collision, and
- body entangle.

You just can't evade if the clinch has been established.


Yes, but the head on and rhino guard approaches are to me more a case of blocking/deflecting rather than evading. When both participants take a head on collision approach to fighting, then your illustration makes sense, but if one participant prefers avoiding the head on collision, then we are getting more into the approach that I favor. I should probably state that I prefer practicing evasion without disengaging as well as avoiding becoming entangled – although both are difficult to maintain during free play (I have a long way to go to consistently maintain this strategy).
LaoDan
Huajing
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Evasion?

Postby windwalker on Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:32 am

LaoDan wrote:
I do not have sparring videos of myself, so I will use the following Traditional Chinese Sword League videos as examples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4ad8nUAaz4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENLp4YoDsak

The first video is closer to how I try to practice. The second video has more of a jumping in and out of range flavor.


Would be interested in reading others opinions of the clips to my eye they do not have a Chinese flavor more european in usage and strategy.

If you know anyone who boxes or has boxed, it might help to broaden some of your experiences concerning engagements with people who hit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6tvS5j ... e=youtu.be

Like this teachers work. Covers some of the concepts talked about here in a live setting with his students
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7664
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Evasion?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:09 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:You already said you can and promised you will "put up a clip:"

Since I'm in California right now and my students are in Texas, I have just sent them an E-mail for such clip. When they send that clip to me, I will post it here. . . .

When one tries to achieve arm wrap head lock, the other guy will pull his punch back in normal combat speed (not to let his arm to hang there).

Ok, good. It will be interesting to see a more realistic arm wrap, head lock drill. Not only that, it may be detrimental for your students to drill without retracting their punches.

dspyrido wrote:I agree - weapons are probably the greatest source of inspiration for evasion training in CMA.

Where it gets tricky. 99% of TC people will walk up, touch hands and start to push and weave at a gentle pace. Ok let's clear out the decks which leave us with the 1% that practice real TC.

So asking everyone here.... (not just picking on you LaoDan):

- Is there a specific set of evasion drills that you have about getting into the touch range?
- Once in range do you pressure test eg you try sticking and evading a person who is wearing a pair of boxing gloves and throwing random, fast punches?
- Beyond just boxing type evasion is kicking or even learning to evade someone reaching to grab head or legs a part of the patterns?

Appreciate any video showing broader types of evasion vs. evasion done in push hands following a set pattern.

Just to better understand, are you asking: Sanda/combat sports have evasion drills outside of touching range, does CMA? That lack of training seems to be one reason CMAists lose these challenge matches to MMA fighters.

Regarding sanda/MMA, it is not only evasion that they drill. Evasion sounds more passive. The goal should be to control the opponent (be steps ahead), not just react or follow. Training includes similar skills and strategies to push hands (e.g, lure, control, footwork, etc.). Only, it's applied to outside of touching range (without touch) as well.

johnwang wrote:CMA is not you move in, I move back. CMA is you move in, I move in too.

False. That is not the definition for all CMA. Yielding, neutralizing and roll back are examples of using the opponent's force against themselves, rather than using force against force.

Excerpts from "The Tai Chi Two-person Dance: Tai Chi with a Partner"
Jonathan Russell wrote:1. Adhering
2. Listening
3. Interpreting
4. Neutralizing
5. Issuing
6. Receiving

It should be noted that the following are learned one after the other. Each skill depends on the preceding one to be successful. . . .

The previous five skills can be described in the turning motion of a circle. (See diagram.) The circling-back motion is adhering, interpreting, and neutralizing. The movement forward is to follow and, if possible, issue. The skill of receiving is to refine this circle to a point. It is still a circle but the movements are brought so close together that they are imperceptible as separate movements and are best described as single point. This is where what was once perceived in increments of feet is now understood within the tiniest fractions of an inch. The subtlest nuances of timing, direction, and circumstance are all thoroughly comprehended and acted upon in an instant.

Image
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Evasion?

Postby windwalker on Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:08 am

Covers force naturalization, angles of attack, closing the gap

johnwang wrote:
CMA is not you move in, I move back. CMA is you move in, I move in too.


Demonstrates moving in at the same time explaining why and how this is done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ttVm3Gig1E&t=6s


nice distance stepping drill.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvoV5hNdd3w
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7664
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Evasion?

Postby LaoDan on Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:13 am

windwalker wrote:
LaoDan wrote:
I do not have sparring videos of myself, so I will use the following Traditional Chinese Sword League videos as examples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4ad8nUAaz4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENLp4YoDsak

The first video is closer to how I try to practice. The second video has more of a jumping in and out of range flavor.


Would be interested in reading others opinions of the clips to my eye they do not have a Chinese flavor more european in usage and strategy.

If you know anyone who boxes or has boxed, it might help to broaden some of your experiences concerning engagements with people who hit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6tvS5j ... e=youtu.be

Like this teachers work. Covers some of the concepts talked about here in a live setting with his students

I base my understanding on the forms that I have been taught and that I practice. With weapons there is not as much opportunity to go to the side of the opponent due to the reach of the opponent’s weapon. Without weapons it is easier to do so (you can be closer, and therefore one does not have to move as far to go outside of about 45 degrees – the circle around the opponent has a smaller diameter than when there are weapons in-between the participants). The choreographed sword forms (jian and dao) that I practice are the following:

Taiji Jian:


San Cai Jian (Xingyi):


Taiji Dao


I cannot find a demonstration of the San He Dao (Xingyi) paired form that I also practice, but it is similar in that there is not a lot of moving to the side of the opponent (and when there is an angle change it is usually no more than about 45 degrees).

While there is some movement to the sides in the above swordsmanship forms, they generally stay within about 45 degrees, and many techniques are executed in a more head on relationship. If your forms are different than the forms that I learned, then your understanding would likely be different than mine. But all of the above stylistically “look” like Chinese forms, at least to my eye.

I additionally base my understanding on the two person Taiji staff form that I practice (I have never found a video of that form). I have never learned a two person spear form, but the drills that I practice maintain an essentially linear relationship between the participants.

For weaponless paired forms, the sanshou form that I learned is similar to the following [starts at ~18:48]:


Many techniques are done primarily head on, or with slight angle changes, and only occasionally move outside of about 45 degrees. Since I primarily practice TJQ, and almost no BGZ, this may be a part of the reason that we appear to view things differently.
LaoDan
Huajing
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Evasion?

Postby johnwang on Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:06 pm

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:CMA is not you move in, I move back. CMA is you move in, I move in too.

False. That is not the definition for all CMA. Yielding, neutralizing and roll back are examples of using the opponent's force against themselves, rather than using force against force.[/color]

This is the definition for many CMA systems. Taiji is just one of many CMA systems. It's a big waste of time if:

- You move in, your opponent moves back.
- Your opponent moves in, you move back.

These 2 clips show no evasion at all.



Last edited by johnwang on Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9116
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests