Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Wuji on Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:07 am

I need some insight from my fellow martial artists here. I've been practicing Xin Yi Liu He Quan now for several years. I've learned the entire system from my Shifu, and I'm still training with him. He recommended adding some grappling into what I do, to make myself more well rounded. I've been wanting to do something competitive for a while. My son is taking Greco-Roman wrestling in school (he's 7 as of today), so I help him with what I can and have a fair bit of exposure to it. I have access to Shuai Jiao, and Judo. If I went the route of Shuai Jiao, which is what I would prefer, I would only be able to do it once a month, or maybe every other month. I would get 5 or so hours in at a time through private lessons. If I go the Judo route, it would be lessons twice a week at 1-2 hours per lesson. Most of my friends that compete do so through Shuai Jiao tournaments. Would what I learned from Judo cross over? Would the 5 hours a month or every other month be enough if I drill what I'm taught with a partner? Looking for some insight.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby johnwang on Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:12 am

It doesn't matter whether you choose SC or Judo, you need to find at least one training partner and wrestle 15 rounds daily.

I don't have any Judo experience. Can't tell whether XYLH and Judo may go together or not.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Appledog on Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:36 am

johnwang wrote:It doesn't matter whether you choose SC or Judo, you need to find at least one training partner and wrestle 15 rounds daily.

I don't have any Judo experience. Can't tell whether XYLH and Judo may go together or not.


If your Xingyi teacher cannot put you in touch with someone who can do SJ well, then I would go with Judo.

The fact is, Judo is more popular in the west and what that means is you can more easily transfer your skills to another 'dojo' with you when you move. I would also guess it is more standardized, that being the point of judo, so you will mre easily be able to make friends and travel to compete with your judo.

Properly taught and learned any martial art works, but you also need to consider the cultural impact of that art on your life depending on where you are from. For me I just really liked Chinese and philosophy so I went with Tai Chi. I think in the end I made the right choice, but if I was going to take up a grappling/wrestling based art of that ilk it would be Judo without any question. I also wouldn't mind learning Praying Mantis, Choy Li Fut, Wing Chun, Baguazhang, Liu He Ba Fa, Xingyiquan and a bunch of other stuff, but again it's all about what you can find and if it's any good and if you can pick it up.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Peacedog on Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:57 am

The bigger issue is finding a good shuai jiao, or judo, school.

Shuai Jiao is pretty uncommon in the US and not all that common even in China.

Either way, you want to find a school that goes hard, does plenty of competitive practice and does not mind hurting people every once in awhile. I say this about hurting people, because if you are frequently throwing people hard onto the ground the reality is that people are going to get hurt from time to time. It is unavoidable.

On balance, it will simply be easier to find a judo school that meets all of these criteria.

That said, I've met a few, mostly older, shuai jiao guys over the years who were pretty damned good and hard men as well.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby wiesiek on Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:49 am

Judo is most popular , so you have bigger sparing partner pool, definitively :)
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby yeniseri on Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:27 am

For someone who is doing performance taijiquan per nandu requirements ,learning judo will add a kick, utility and function to your taijiquan or even changquan.
No need to mention that you know any martial art. If you are as good as you imagine, then you will see functionalty and utility in that exchange. Though I am 'old' at my age, I recently found a judo class nearby and I watch the workout sessions but I have yet to commit to attending ;D
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby dspyrido on Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:05 am

Do both! Go to Judo on a regular basis & then monthly do private SJ practice. You will learn the strength and weakness of both styles/teachers/schools but many moves will overlap.

The only conflict will be in rules when competing. Judo dropped touching the legs with the hands and also does not allow 2 hands to break grip. SJ is less formalized & varies depending on who is teaching it (which province, flavor, coaches preference). Both even translate well to Sambo.

I like freestyle wrestling because it's more open for creative moves & faster as gi's slow things down too much for my liking. If your kid is doing Greco then you might want to also enroll in a wrestling school (or just trial it) to get a full taste of what is available.

The only thing training these styles does to XYLH is put a barrier in place to striking with dangerous force. You have to think twice before doing a rising elbow to someones face. :)

The benefit is - lots of fun conditioning.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby johnwang on Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:23 pm

dspyrido wrote:Do both!

There may be some basic conflict between 2 arts.

SC - sport of strength.
Judo - use minimum effort to achieve maximum result.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Ian on Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:07 pm

Judo is worldwide and standardised, shuaijiao is not.

"Since 1956 no country has earned more gold medals than Japan. Japan has now earned 120 gold medals (including 32 Olympic gold medals) compared to their closest rival, France, with 39 (including 10 Olympic gold medals). The gap is growing wider each year."

This is what the ultimate level of judo looks like:





You could do a lot worse than aiming at getting to this level.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:07 am

Ian wrote:Judo is worldwide and standardised, shuaijiao is not.

"Since 1956 no country has earned more gold medals than Japan. Japan has now earned 120 gold medals (including 32 Olympic gold medals) compared to their closest rival, France, with 39 (including 10 Olympic gold medals). The gap is growing wider each year."

This is what the ultimate level of judo looks like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x55chunJ9w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfbxHyovit8

You could do a lot worse than aiming at getting to this level.

If anyone is interested, World Judo Championships 2019 from Tokyo streaming live.

Location: Tokyo (JPN)
Date: 25 August - 01 September 2019:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK66HBiXs_0
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:38 pm

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Do both!

There may be some basic conflict between 2 arts.

SC - sport of strength.
Judo - use minimum effort to achieve maximum result.


Best of both worlds! Then he can also decide what fits his personality. Alternatively bit excessive power with maximum leverage never hurt anyone. :)
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby johnwang on Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:45 pm

In SC, you don't mind to pay extra effort if you can get a grip on your opponent while your opponent has no grip on you. As far as I know, Judo guys don't do this that much.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby dspyrido on Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:10 pm

Kind of depends on the coach but in general yes SJ does a lot of grip breaking from day 1. It also allows leg take downs and uses more shin bite type moves. And judo has ground work & sacrificing throws. etc etc

But they are not incompatible if it's about open throwing.

Training the body regularly & in different environments is far more productive than just one. Seeing different ways people view the same throw leads to an awareness of the variations and how to refine it. Plus there's the big thing of getting used to different body types due to different training groups.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby johnwang on Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:45 pm

dspyrido wrote:But they are not incompatible ...

With different goal, the training can be different.

Since in SC, if you can throw your opponent and still remain good balance, you will get 2 points (you get 1 point if you lose balance). SC guys like to train single leg balance after throwing. Since the purpose of Judo throw is to connect to the ground game, single leg balance is less emphasized as much in Judo.

It may not have much combat value. It's just a self-test.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:36 pm

johnwang wrote:In SC, you don't mind to pay extra effort if you can get a grip on your opponent while your opponent has no grip on you. As far as I know, Judo guys don't do this that much.

Image

Your tearing clip shows only evasion. It appears shuai chiao competition has more grip fighting and less large, powerful throws than judo, as a result of the difference in the way points are scored.

Judo has grip fighting/breaking (kumi kata) too. However In judo competition, only evading (stalling) leads to disqualification (3 penalties) by the rules. As you said in the Evasion thread:
johnwang wrote: "You just can't dodge your opponent to death. Evasion is too conservative way of thinking."


From the current World Judo Championships 2019 from Tokyo, grip fighting to throw:

Image

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:But they are not incompatible ...

With different goal, the training can be different.

Since in SC, if you can throw your opponent and still remain good balance, you will get 2 points (you get 1 point if you lose balance). SC guys like to train single leg balance after throwing. Since the purpose of Judo throw is to connect to the ground game, single leg balance is less emphasized as much in Judo.

It may not have much combat value. It's just a self-test.

Image

"The purpose of Judo throw is to" land the opponent largely on his back (ippon) winning the match.

Judo guys like to train single leg balance after throwing too, so that they don't have to get off the floor each time, getting more repetitions in:

Image

Harai Goshi in Judo and MMA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpvIQ9sgCVM
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