Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby dspyrido on Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:04 pm

All these gi art's make me wonder ... why not select freestyle wrestling mixed in with submission wrestling/grappling (aka catch or nogi)? It is after all the clearly dominant method found in all the top UFC fighters. For those in the USA isn't there a lot more world class wrestling there than anything else? Even around the western world it's accessible.

Or just pop down to an MMA gym (or if available vale tudo, pancrase, combat sambo etc.) to learn how to link striking with throwing. Even sanda would be a good choice here.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby johnwang on Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:34 pm

dspyrido wrote:All these gi art's make me wonder ... why not select freestyle wrestling ...

Agree! If you don't learn the jacket wrestling, you may save many years later on in your life time to unlearn it. In jacket wrestling, to use stiff arms to hold your opponent back is a very bad habit. When you hold on your opponent's front waist belt, you have just dis-abled most of his throwing skill. The problem is your opponent can punch on your head right at that moment. I strongly suggest to start from no-jacket wrestling.

After I had switched from jacket wrestling into no-jacket wrestling, I don't even want to go back to jacket wrestling any more. The no-jacket wrestling is much easier to be integrated into the striking art. After I have send people to compete in Sanda tournament, I lose interest to send people to compete in SC tournament. To me, that's moving backward instead of moving forward. I'll be more interested to use my SC skill to deal with a boxer than to deal with another SC guy.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Finny on Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:06 pm

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:All these gi art's make me wonder ... why not select freestyle wrestling ...

Agree! If you don't learn the jacket wrestling, you may save many years later on in your life time to unlearn it. In jacket wrestling, to use stiff arms to hold your opponent back is a very bad habit. When you hold on your opponent's front waist belt, you have just dis-abled most of his throwing skill. The problem is your opponent can punch on your head right at that moment. I strongly suggest to start from no-jacket wrestling.

After I had switched from jacket wrestling into no-jacket wrestling, I don't even want to go back to jacket wrestling any more. The no-jacket wrestling is much easier to be integrated into the striking art. After I have send people to compete in Sanda tournament, I lose interest to send people to compete in SC tournament. To me, that's moving backward instead of moving forward. I'll be more interested to use my SC skill to deal with a boxer than to deal with another SC guy.


Would you feel differently if you (or someone you were teaching) had an extensive boxing/kickboxing background?

In other words, do you feel it is worthwhile studying 'jacket wrestling' or training SC exclusively with that striking background? Or still superior to study striking-integrated training from the outset?
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby johnwang on Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:25 pm

Finny wrote:Would you feel differently if you (or someone you were teaching) had an extensive boxing/kickboxing background?

In other words, do you feel it is worthwhile studying 'jacket wrestling' or training SC exclusively with that striking background? Or still superior to study striking-integrated training from the outset?

IMO, you still have to learn the striking art and throwing art separately before you can integrate both together. It's easier to integrate the no-jacket wrestling with the striking art than to integrate the jacket wrestling with the striking art.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Finny on Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:08 am

Yeah that's what I'd thought - glad to hear I'm not far off the mark in my logic. Now if I could just get to training more often...
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Trick on Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:31 am

At least, keep the pants on
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby wiesiek on Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:37 am

btw, anyway
quite often you may have a chance to grab adversary clothes...
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby dspyrido on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:40 pm

wiesiek wrote:btw, anyway
quite often you may have a chance to grab adversary clothes...


It's always mentioned but unless people walk around in gi's or sj jackets it's never the same thickness, stiffness and length. To catch an elbow requires different training vs a sleeve. To get an arm around the neck requires to be up close vs a front jacket grab. Many other examples...

Chokes like lapel ones require materials that can move to position and not break. Also if I really wanted to train weapons (ie people using gis as weapons) I can think of a lot more better ones.

Plus gi's slow everything down and are an artificial equaliser for speed & weight. It helps smaller vs big/clumsy but it is still artificial to most clothes.

Finally anyone who practices sticky/pushing arts will prefer skin contact and less grip. Even most chinna is non-jacket based.

But wrestling moves are fast, require skin contact and can be done regardless what they are wearing. Maybe even in armour. 8-)
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby johnwang on Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:42 pm

wiesiek wrote:btw, anyway
quite often you may have a chance to grab adversary clothes...

The issue is if you stay in jacket wrestling too long, you may not train enough

- wrist grab,
- arm wrap,
- under hook,
- over hook.
- mantis arm,
- ...

Your wrestling will become just a "sport".

In the following clip, he obtains both grip before he starts his throw. IMO, to obtain grips and then apply throw is a very bad habit.



In this clip, he obtains the neck contact point on the way in.

Last edited by johnwang on Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:19 am

wiesiek wrote:btw, anyway
quite often you may have a chance to grab adversary clothes...

Yes, just look at the hockey brawlers, pull the shirt over the other guys head and there you go.... one of my CMA teachers did that on me while sparring, I still managed to plant a punch in his face
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby middleway on Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:17 am

All these gi art's make me wonder ... why not select freestyle wrestling mixed in with submission wrestling/grappling (aka catch or nogi)? It is after all the clearly dominant method found in all the top UFC fighters. For those in the USA isn't there a lot more world class wrestling there than anything else? Even around the western world it's accessible.


- Most people in my area of the world will be wearing jackets for about 75% of the year :)
- It is only the dominant method for the people who trained it from an early age, outside of that we see some great Judoka (Rousey) and obviously a huge amount of BJJ people dominating.
- In the USA i agree the access to amazing wrestling academies should be focused on. In the UK we have VERY little wrestling but a huge amount of Judo. I think that Access to a good system, a good coach and a good training environment is as important as 'what' you are training.

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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:52 am

No jacket Shuai Jiao.

ugeneizdope
Published on Apr 29, 2017

Shanxi Shuai Jiao comes from the lineage of Song Dynasty Shuaijiao. It is mainly practised in the counties between the mining city of Datong in northern Shanxi and the provincial capital Taiyuan in central Shanxi. The main characteristic is leg catching techniques, as traditionally wrestlers wear only tight knee-length pants:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nakvMaIJJQk

ugeneizdope
Published on Sep 19, 2017

Being the well-known "home of wrestling" dating back 1,500 years, Shanxi cherishes the national cultural heritage of traditional Naoyang wrestling, even a hobby for children, as tens of thousands of local people usually wrestle with bare arms.

Shanxi Shuai Jiao comes from the lineage of Song Dynasty Shuaijiao. It is mainly practised in the counties between the mining city of Datong in northern Shanxi and the provincial capital Taiyuan in central Shanxi. The main characteristic is leg catching techniques, as traditionally wrestlers wear only tight knee-length pants:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDi2yz8JRzY
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:14 am

Liang Xiaofeng may have shuai jiao training too.

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Published on Dec 4, 2015

Press CC , then you can see the English Subtitle .

Xing Yi quan came from Dai family Xin Yi Liu He. Because Dai family martial arts practicers were very closed, they only teach their Dai family descendants.So in Dai Family living city, people said, only see Dai family people beat other people, but never see Dai family people practise martial arts.

Because Dai family Xin Yi Liu He quan was closed, so it wasn't changed, it still keep its initial ancient fighting way. From Dai Family Xin Yi Liu He, we can see the ancient fighting way.

Liang Xiaofeng master is a good and famous master about Dai Family Xin Yi Liu He quan, other good master about Dai Family Xin Yi Liu He recent years, there are Wang YingHai(dead in 2012, his son is Wang Xicheng), Tian Ruwen, and so on.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CJp1K-ihE4
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby dspyrido on Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:22 pm

Trick wrote:
wiesiek wrote:btw, anyway
quite often you may have a chance to grab adversary clothes...

Yes, just look at the hockey brawlers, pull the shirt over the other guys head and there you go.... one of my CMA teachers did that on me while sparring, I still managed to plant a punch in his face


You guys must have a great working relationship.

Some cma systems teach clothes manipulation as part of chin-na. I only did it briefly but if I was going to learn controlling clothes it would be a better way to go or if time permits a good addon to any gi/jacket methods because it is taught more realistically. For example it does not make much sense to learn to pull a jacket over someones head in a gi class. It does when someone is wearing a jacket that does not close up in the front.

In learning about clothes manipulation it struck me as a sub-style that if it's important to someone is probably a better way to learn how to utilize it properly.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby dspyrido on Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:52 pm

middleway wrote:- Most people in my area of the world will be wearing jackets for about 75% of the year :)
- It is only the dominant method for the people who trained it from an early age, outside of that we see some great Judoka (Rousey) and obviously a huge amount of BJJ people dominating.


Jackets - makes sense but see the note above about the specifics of jacket training. Just because someone wheres a jacket does not mean the details translate to/from gi.

Wrestling dominance - I can't think of any current bjj or judo top ranking title holder in UFC. A quick look over UFC top fighters and at a guess it's about 80% or more that have a wrestling base. The rest is a mix. Even top 3 for heavyweight, light heavyeight, middleweight etc. any non-wrestlers are an annomally.

Also it is important to consider what works in general vs. the exception. For example Steve Wonderboy is an excellent kicker from a karate background but is an exception in UFC. I wouldn't be recommending people mimic his style unless they really had the drive and body type for it.

But wrestling is clearly dominating.

https://www.vividseats.com/blog/ufc-champions-fighting-style

The thing to note is look at the last 5 years vs. UFC history. In the last 5 years there would not be any judo/bjj rankings. The game has changed and this is even in the light of the world wide popularity growth of both styles. As you say - it seems easier to find schools in these areas but it does not correlate to what is dominating in the octagon.

middleway wrote:- In the USA i agree the access to amazing wrestling academies should be focused on. In the UK we have VERY little wrestling but a huge amount of Judo. I think that Access to a good system, a good coach and a good training environment is as important as 'what' you are training.


Agreed. The only bit to add is even if it's hard to get to a a good wrestling coach I would at least augment Judo training with it if possible. In the UK I would spend time trying to hunt down freestyle, lancashire, folk or catch wrestling. Even once per month in addition to judo would expand the mind.
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