Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

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Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby Yeung on Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:19 am

We, the Non-concentric Exercise Group in the East Midlands have developed the variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms, without the opening stance, opening form, closing form, and all the repeats; there are only 37 forms as follows:

1. Form 3 Grasp peacocks tail拦雀尾
2. Form 4 Single whip单鞭
3. Form 5 Raise hands 提手
4. Form 6 White Crane spreading wings白鹤凉翅
5. Form 7 Brush knee and twist step 搂膝拗步
6. Form 8 Hands strumming the lute手挥琵琶
7. Form 11 Step up, parry and punch进步搬拦捶
8. Form 12 Apparent close up如封似闭
9. Form 13 Cross hands十字手
10.Form 14 Return to mountain with Tiger 抱虎归山
11.Form 16 Fist under elbow肘底捶
12.Form 17 Step back Forearm (Step back to repulse the monkey) 倒撵猴
13.Form 18 Oblique flying斜飞式
14.Form 22 Needle at sea bottom海底针
15.Form 23 Flash out arm (Fan through the back) 扇通背
16.Form 24 Turn, sidle and punch转身撇身捶
17.Form 28 Wave hands like clouds云手
18.Form 30 High pat on horse高探马
19.Form 31 &32 Right kick, left kick (Flip Kicks) 分脚
20.Form 33 Turn and left (heel) kick转身蹬脚
21.Form 35 Step up and punch down进步栽锤
22.Form 36 White snake show tongue 白蛇吐信
23.Form 39 & 40 Sidle left to tame the tiger 打虎式
24.Form 41 Heel kicks蹬脚
25.Form 43 Turn around and kick 转身蹬脚
26.Form 42 Strike opponent's ears with both fists双峰灌耳
27.Form 51 Parting wild horse's mane 野马分鬃
28.Form 54 (Fair lady) working at shuttles玉女穿梭
29.Form 59 Snake creeps down下势
30.Form 60 Golden Cock on one leg 金鸡独立
31.Form 75 Cross palms (back to back) 穿掌
32.Form 76 Turn, cross hands and kick十字腿
33.Form 77 Brush knee and punch (Step up and punch to the groin) 进步指裆锤
34.Form 81 Step up to form seven stars上步七星
35.Form 82 Retreat to mount tiger退步跨虎
36.Form 83 Turn and swing up lotus-kick 转身摆莲
37.Form 84 Archer shooting Tiger (Bend the bow and shoot the tiger) 弯弓射虎

For each form we do left and right and variations from applications, and then sort of link them up from 1 to 37 on the right side and 1 to 37 on the left side; these sort of working out well in reducing the space so that people can practice the link forms at home. At the moment we are trying to develop various links between different forms - the ideas from Xingyiquan and Baguaquan - with infinite changes. And we are looking at the application in two person sets and pushing hand sets for martial sports.

Does this sound like a good syllabus for serious learners of Taijiquan?
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby GrahamB on Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:23 am

"the Non-concentric Exercise Group"

Who the what now?
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:48 am

So how are you defining the postures, by the static position at the end?

In my practice the meat of the form is the "linking up" between those points. If you're just making up stuff to get from point to point, what are you even doing?
Last edited by oragami_itto on Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:25 pm

I would love to see film of one of the inventors of this form doing it
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby marvin8 on Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:39 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I would love to see film of one of the inventors of this form doing it

Not a form. But, a couple of "non-concentric" movement videos posted by Yeung.

From Facebook post, "Experiment with Fajin 1"
United Kingdom Pangration Athlima Federation on July 15, 2019 wrote:Experiment with Fajin, No.1

Image


Excerpt from RSF thread, "Tai Chi as an eccentrically-biased movement patterns:"
Yeung on Dec 16, 2016 wrote:Here is an example of rotating the crotch (angle or region of the angle formed by the junction of two parts or members,such as two legs or branches.):

Absorb and repel

Image

Maybe you can compare that with some videos on Taijiquan as they push concentrically forward instead of rotating the crotch to generate power.
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby Yeung on Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:25 pm

We sort of deconstruct the 88 forms and reconstruct into 37 forms left and right sides according the non-concentric exercise model to minimize the use of concentric muscle contraction. There are 1369 possible links between the forms but most of them are very similar; there is a long tradition in Chinese Martial Arts to make up routines such as the 24, 48, and various competitive routines. So, one of the learning outcomes is for the practitioner to compose a routine from a set of forms randomly selected. We are still reconstructing the 37 left and right routine, any question or suggestion is welcome.
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby Subitai on Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:37 pm

oragami_itto wrote:So how are you defining the postures, by the static position at the end?

In my practice the meat of the form is the "linking up" between those points. If you're just making up stuff to get from point to point, what are you even doing?



This gets a +1 from me :) ... I was about to say a version of just about the same thing, then I read this post. Spot on.
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby Yeung on Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:06 am

I do not see any difficulty in connecting different forms , as in the 88 there are lots of transitional techniques such as holding the ball, embracing, reverse punch, twisted step, palm strike, pushing; and transitional forms such as single whip, white crane spreading wings, strumming the lute, wave hands in the cloud. The problems are continuity and adhering techniques in application; I mean what is the use of grasp the peacock’s tail when one does not know how to adhere and grab the incoming punch for example. Maybe most Taijiquan practitioners do not train in pushing hands properly.
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby yeniseri on Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:09 pm

Yeung wrote:I do not see any difficulty in connecting different forms , as in the 88 there are lots of transitional techniques such as holding the ball, embracing, reverse punch, twisted step, palm strike, pushing; and transitional forms such as single whip, white crane spreading wings, strumming the lute, wave hands in the cloud. The problems are continuity and adhering techniques in application; I mean what is the use of grasp the peacock’s tail when one does not know how to adhere and grab the incoming punch for example. Maybe most Taijiquan practitioners do not train in pushing hands properly.


You are the only person who has mentioned this part of taijiquan form standardization and that is interesting!
One of recent teachers (old school , acupuncturist, herbalist) mentioned that he learned a 'traditional' form but a few classes later, his teachers had the classs standardize a form on their own with the tools from other classes they had taken previously and they had to explain why they did certain postures and why (arrangement and [patterns of movement). ;D
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:31 pm

Having learnt other forms like the 24/48 I don't know why the traditional sequence is vital
However I do know it is
All major schools follow the same sequence
Before you change something you should know why it is the way it is
Most changes are for commercial reasons and to cater to lazy students
People say the 108 is too long and they don't have the time yet they practice other things
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby Yeung on Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:12 am

In the book published in 1931 by Yang Chenfu [and Dong Yingjie], he said: “The complete seventy-eight posture routine above is comprised of thirty-seven distinct postures” (translation by Paul Brennan, 2011). In practice, the forms are similar with some variations but the sequence can randomly develop with some additional inputs if necessary. The original purpose of the forms is the application of adherent techniques, and this is why it does not work without a background of pushing hands. With the 13 techniques in pushing hands, the forms can then be improved and to develop various encounters. I think I have been misled by the philosophy of deconstructionism, as what I am doing is restoring Taijiquan as a martial art.
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby cloudz on Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:35 am

GrahamB wrote:"the Non-concentric Exercise Group"

Who the what now?


ha,

don't get me started! ;D
Yeung perhaps should have stuck to the eccentric exercise group, which works for them on a couple levels. :D

jokes aside.

Long story 'short' Yeung is a big fan and advocate of eccentric movement - for IMA purposes in particular I guess - though they are great for everyone and everything.
And yes, he correctly identifies the way we are taught to move in IMA lends itself to or mimicks (perhaps better way to put it) the way we (can and do, depending) accentuate the negative phase in (any given movement) exercises - or the eccentric contraction, if you like.

The thing of it is though - all various movements, in terms of planes of motion of the limbs required in martial arts - contain both eccentric and concentric movements/ contractions of muscle - often at the same time either side of the same body part.

Using terminology like "non concentric exercise" doesn't make sense to me as it doesn't really reflect the whole truth at all.
It just reflects some ideal, or it reflects a preference or focus on eccentric phases and contractions. which is all well and good in of itself.

Though I would still maintain "non concentric" xyz, is misleading.
It's a step up in sophistacation of saying "we don't use or engage muscle or strength", but it's equally wrong, technically speaking..

There's nothing at all inherently wrong or out of place with concentric phase and concentric contraction of muscle if your body control is correctly organised..
Which it should be, should be a given.

The discussion and context is IMA, it isn't powerlifting.

This (to me) is all a bit like stating the obvious in one context (IMA) but rebranding and re issuing that statement in disguise using the contextual references from a modern academic source of knowledge, as if it's some new fangled revelation you just figured out all by yourself.

Well no, nooo, no!

Actually all that changed was the words you chose to confound every one. The truth of it was and will forever be unchanged, and relatively easy to grasp experientially and with clear honest layman language. Or let's say common sense language.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:12 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby Steve James on Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:45 am

Well, before YCF, there was no "standard" Yang form. The Yang and Wu/Ng family members alive today all point to YCF as the "standardizer." Regardless of why or how he did it, or where it came from, the point is that there were lots of variations before there was a standard. Having one version made it much easier to teach and produce teachers, and YCF is also considered the "great popularizer." More people practiced his version than any other. YCF's version (ordering) was what came out of the Nanjing Guoshou school/s.

In addition, even the pace of the form was not standardized to be done slowly. In fact, some practitioners only did the form fast. I'm only talking about the Yang/Wu tradition and writings. The Chen style forms were the Yang style's source material, but the development of both are distinct --especially after 1930.

So, I don't see any problem with re-organizing the choreography, order, or speed of the forms. I do know that doing the form slowly, calmly, and having awareness of breath is good for one's health --far more than fighting, and probably more useful in the long run. I'd say that was why it became popular. Otoh, I think there have always been people who've treated tcc as a martial art. Ime, they've usually taken from tcc what they've found useful in that context.
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:42 pm

Not true
Older forms of yang follow the same sequence as do the chen,Hao and Li I Yu
Last edited by wayne hansen on Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Variations from the standard Taijiquan 88 Forms

Postby Steve James on Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:53 pm

What do you mean by "sequence"? I don't do Chen, but how can the sequence of movements be the same when the movements are not the same.

Anyway, I was told directly by one of Ma Yueh Liang's students (Dr. Wen Zee) about the standardization of the Yang/Wu long forms. Ma's son, who teaches in Germany, also talked about how the form was done differently (in his book). Though, at least one of his students used to post here.

Apart from the sequence, doing the entire long form at a slow, continuous, pace without jumps and fast movements has also been attributed to YCF. And, even if the sequence was always the same, not everyone did it the same way.
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