Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby GrahamB on Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:19 pm

To you there is no difference.
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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby Greg J on Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:08 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
While I'm glad to hear that he finds Aikido, Taiji, and Xingyi useful in his career as a police officer, based on the stylistic comparisons in the article, it seems to me that his understanding of IMA still remains at a very technique-based and somewhat superficial level.



It seemed to me that the opposite was true - the author was able to feel commonalities between techniques, and apply them in real life situations. This to me shows deep understanding.

C.J.W. wrote:

Quite black-belt-magazine-ish if you ask me. :)



True, but what's wrong with that? He's just recounting his experiences in an easy to understand way.

wiesiek wrote:
GrahamB wrote:I think GJJ is a copyrighted name owned by one branch of the Gracie family.

Everybody else calls it BJJ.


so
is there ANY significant difference, between those two clones of cruelly overweighted by ne waza Brazilians style of JJ?


Hahaha, that's a funny way to put it. Also, it's pretty off topic from the OP. If you really want to know the answer, go to any BJJ school and I'm sure the instructors would be happy to show you the difference. Especially if you call their art a "clone of cruelly overweighted by ne waza Brazilians style of JJ." ;D

This might also help:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/1 ... tween_the/

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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby GrahamB on Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:05 am

Greg - yes, exactly. Interesting how using something in real life against a resisting opponent is viewed as low level, but doing beautiful forms against the air (in silk pj?) is high level.

It brings into question what the actual goal of martial arts is.
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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby johnwang on Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:43 pm

GrahamB wrote:Greg - yes, exactly. Interesting how using something in real life against a resisting opponent is viewed as low level, but doing beautiful forms against the air (in silk pj?) is high level.

It brings into question what the actual goal of martial arts is.

The goal is to push, push, and still push.

- You don't need to punch on the face (very bad, very low level).
- You don't need to kick at the groin (also very bad, very low level).
- All you will need is just to push on the chest (very good, very high level).

We cannot just discuss in abstract theory, punch into the thin air, Fajin, stick, follow, yield, … . We also need to discuss in entering strategy, finish strategy, footwork, kick, punch, lock, throw, ground work, … .
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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby Trick on Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:58 am

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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:31 am

Greg J wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:
While I'm glad to hear that he finds Aikido, Taiji, and Xingyi useful in his career as a police officer, based on the stylistic comparisons in the article, it seems to me that his understanding of IMA still remains at a very technique-based and somewhat superficial level.



It seemed to me that the opposite was true - the author was able to feel commonalities between techniques, and apply them in real life situations. This to me shows deep understanding.



Let's see....after decades of training in XY/BG/TJ and Aikido, the guy writes a lengthy article with a section devoted to the fact that both XY's Snake form and TJ's daojuangong can be used as an Aikido hammerlock to take the opponent down..... ::)

Sorry, not impressed.

If he could, instead, explain in detail and compare/contrast the body mechanics that the 3 styles use to successfully execute what appears to be the same technique to the untrained eye, THAT, to me, would be deep understanding.
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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:57 am

GrahamB wrote:Greg - yes, exactly. Interesting how using something in real life against a resisting opponent is viewed as low level, but doing beautiful forms against the air (in silk pj?) is high level.

It brings into question what the actual goal of martial arts is.


That's a classic straw man right there. :-X

My comment was directed toward the author's perceived level of understanding of IMA, NOT his fighting skill or experience.

Being able to apply basic self-defense techniques (that are found in literally every single martial art style on the planet) against thugs on the street most certainly does not equate to high-level understanding of IMA.

But just to be fair, having high-level understanding of IMA does not equate to applicable fighting skill either. ;)
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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby GrahamB on Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:55 am

Unfortunately "High level" is an utterly nebulous term. A bit like "internal". It means a million different things to a million different people.

Perhaps if your "high level" individual can do lots of complicated body maneuvers but not apply anything against a resisting opponent (as we see in all these MMA vs Kung Fu fights going on in China right now) then they are not in fact "high level" at all...

High level what exactly?

Of course, you want somebody who can do both. I've been lucky enough to find a few in my time.
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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby Trick on Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:50 am

there is no such thing as "resisting opponent" at the hands of Taijiquan 8-)
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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby marvin8 on Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:49 am

C.J.W. wrote:
GrahamB wrote:Greg - yes, exactly. Interesting how using something in real life against a resisting opponent is viewed as low level, but doing beautiful forms against the air (in silk pj?) is high level.

It brings into question what the actual goal of martial arts is.


That's a classic straw man right there. :-X

My comment was directed toward the author's perceived level of understanding of IMA, NOT his fighting skill or experience.

Being able to apply basic self-defense techniques (that are found in literally every single martial art style on the planet) against thugs on the street most certainly does not equate to high-level understanding of IMA.

But just to be fair, having high-level understanding of IMA does not equate to applicable fighting skill either. ;)

What does "high-level understanding of IMA" equate to if not understanding how to apply it against thugs in the street or defend oneself in a fight?

Please explain the high-level IMA understanding of the chicken wing joint lock, as opposed to the low level:

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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby johnwang on Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:18 pm

marvin8 wrote:Please explain the high-level IMA understanding of the chicken wing joint lock, as opposed to the low level:


Let me try on this.

High level (body unification) - You drop your body from a high stance into a low stance. You use your whole body to press down. The relationship between your arm and your body doesn't change. You also add your leg spring into it.
Low level (muscle group isolation) - Your body height remain unchanged. You only use your arm to press down. No leg skill.

It has nothing to do with "internal".
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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:01 pm

Since we are on the topic of joint-locks and high-level vs. fighting skill, I'd like to share an anecdote from Robert W. Smith's Martial Musings. (It's been almost 20 years since I last read the book, so please excuse me if I don't quite get the details right.)

In the book, Smith talks about how he once taught a qinna move he'd learned in Taiwan to an American police officer. The officer later went back to thank him because the technique actually worked on the street. However, when Smith asked the burly cop to show him exactly what he'd done, he was shocked to see how sloppy the officer's technique was, and that the lock was actually applied incorrectly. But since the officer was quite big and strong, he was able to make the move work for him anyway.

Let's say you were 6'5'' and weighed 350 pounds, how much skill would you need in order to to beat up an average joe half your size, or drop him with an arm lock?

So for me, fighting skill -- or the ability to apply a fighting technique in real-life situations -- does not equate to high-level skill whatsoever. It is entirely possible for someone to be a formidable fighter while possessing nothing more than low-level skill. And low-level skill, IMO, is about relying on brute strength, size, and athleticism (i.e., good genetics) with inefficient body use, requiring more effort than needed to get the job done.

High-level skill, in a very VERY big nutshell, is the opposite of that: maximum effect with minimum effort, the type of skill which produces unusual leverage and power, allowing a smaller guy to defeat a larger opponent.
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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby GrahamB on Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:02 am

OK then, here's your high-level fight compilation clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anOyPpFpsqY

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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby marvin8 on Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:33 am

C.J.W. wrote:That's a classic straw man right there. :-X

My comment was directed toward the author's perceived level of understanding of IMA, NOT his fighting skill or experience.

C.J.W. wrote:It is entirely possible for someone to be a formidable fighter while possessing nothing more than low-level skill. And low-level skill, IMO, is about relying on brute strength, size, and athleticism (i.e., good genetics) with inefficient body use, requiring more effort than needed to get the job done.

High-level skill, in a very VERY big nutshell, is the opposite of that: maximum effect with minimum effort, the type of skill which produces unusual leverage and power, allowing a smaller guy to defeat a larger opponent.

Your comment and my inquiry was "directed toward the author's" joint locking techniques which was shown in the video. Neither appeared to use "brute strength, size or athleticism."

You provided a "straw man" without answering:
marvin8 wrote:Please explain the high-level IMA understanding of the chicken wing joint lock, as opposed to the low level:
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Re: Aikido, Taijiuan, XingYi IRL

Postby johnwang on Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:43 pm

Is the term "high level" only used by the IMA people? I have never heard about any long fist guy, preying mantis guy, Baji guy, WC guy, boxer, Judo guy, wrestler, ... ever use this term.

IMO,

high level = pure blood.
low level = muggle.

It divides people instead of unites people. What's more important? You can fight, or you are high level?

A: My skill is high level. Your skill is low level.
B: I can fight. You can't.
A: Even if you can fight, you are still low level.
B: Even if you are high level, you still can't fight.
A: @#$%^&
B: &^%$#@
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