Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby Trick on Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:18 am

yes, thats right !
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2697
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:39 am

Yeung wrote:I think this is a good definition of Taijiquan from the writing of Shen Jiazhen (1963).




seems like a very physical way of looking at it.

ON THE TRAINING METHOD FOR THE EIGHT GATES & FIVE STEPS

八卦五行是人生成固有之良必先明知覺運動四字之本由知覺運動得之後而后方能懂勁由懂勁後自能接及神明然用功之初要知知覺運動雖固有之良亦甚難淂之於我也
The eight trigrams and five elements are innate within us. You must first understand that they are based in these four terms: perception, realization, activation, action. [These four terms amount to “moving with awareness”.

This is a breakdown of four words – 知, 覺, 運, 動 – which would typically, and especially so for modern Chinese speakers, only be considered as two terms: 知覺 and 運動. To break movement (運動) and awareness (知覺) into their component parts results in: moving = the activation (運) of movement + the act (動) of moving, and awareness = the perception (覺) that something is + the realization (知) of what it is. In short, moving with awareness.

This idea is further elaborated upon in the next section, where the purpose of breaking down the two terms into four becomes more clear.]

Once you have achieved moving with awareness, then you will be able to identify energies. Once you can identify energies, then you will be able to be miraculous. But in the beginning of training, you should understand moving with awareness. Although it is innate, it is nevertheless hard to achieve within oneself.
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/explaining-taiji-principles-taiji-fa-shuo/

"moving with awareness"
for me is more clear and useful.
Each of the family styles have their own way of achieving this with their own unique flavor.
I would not call or view taijjiquan as an exercise...
I view it as more of a training method leading to specific skill sets
what the skill sets are used for depends on the focus of the teaching.
Historically it was fighting


what we use in my work

"open close, empty full, swallow, spit, move with awareness

基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動"
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7673
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby marvin8 on Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:23 pm

everything wrote:seems like every single one has to have good mind-body integration, stretchiness, and springiness. heck, same with all sports for that matter (but most of those aren't specifically for self defense). yes, same with yoga ^^^

Yes. MMA is a mind-body integration, stretchy and springy exercise too. Shen Jiazhen says tai chi has "different types of tension," not that tai chi is only a stretchy (elastic energy), springy exercise:
Shen Jiazhen wrote:6.4 Different tensions and completion in one go
7. From low tension to high tension, from high tension to low tension, the exercise of coordinating tensions
7.1 Coordination of tensions
7.2 A period of getting rid of stiffness to seek low tension
7.3 A period of training to produce high tension from low tension
7.4 Interchange of low tension and high tension
7.5 Mastering the coordination of tensions ...
8.3 Timing, coordination, and different tensions in slow and fast

Dr. Stuart McGill discusses similar features.

Excerpts from "Striking faster and harder – How the great fighters do it:"
Dr. Stuart McGill wrote:Great fighters simply get more out of their bodies to create fantastic performance. Teaming up with some top MMA/UFC fighters, we were able to document the “tricks” of striking fast and hard (see the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2010)

Our objective of the testing was to document their motion patterns through video, together with muscle activation profiles, when striking a heavy bag. A muscle contracts from pulses from the brain sent via the nerves. These pulses create waveforms in the muscles that are detected by electrodes adhered to the skin overlaying the muscles. Special amplifiers and electronics capture the muscle activation profiles at a rate of 1000 times per second. The technique is known as Electromyography. We also wanted to precisely quantify the 3D motion of the lumbar region to examine how fighters use their core (McGill is a spine specialist and Chaimberg is a strength and Conditioning coach to many elite fighters).

Interestingly, we measured the same qualities that we find in many top athletes, from many sports. If we had to name a single variable common to these overachievers, it would be the incredible rate of muscle contraction and rate of relaxation.

First, the paradox linking muscle force and speed: when muscle contracts it creates force, but also stiffness. Force creates faster movement but the corresponding stiffness slows the change of muscle shape and joint velocity. For many the instruction to relax to obtain top speed seems counterintuitive. But this becomes instantly apparent hitting a golf ball. Try and hit hard using muscle and the ball never goes far. This is because muscle stiffness slows the motion down. The great long ball hitters relax through the swing gaining top speed but rapidly contract at ball contact to create a stiffness that is transferred to the club and ball. This is the “pulse”. Then the musculature instantly relaxed to maintain speed of follow through.

Similar principles apply for the hand strike and kick. The top fighters undergo a total body contraction and stiffness to initiate the foot motion of a kick. Then as the foot travels through the air gaining speed and covering distance, a relaxation phase occurs. This is followed by a second total body pulse just before impact to deliver maximum force into the opponent. This is akin to setting the entire body as an unyielding stone – thus hitting the opponent with the entire mass of the fighter. Failure to “double pulse” results in a slow kick or a soft impact, or both. Consider the activation of the back musculature demonstrated by Pavel – the great kettlebell coach and martial artist who has visited our lab. As a side note, Pavel has the strongest pound for pound “core” we have ever measured – his training works.


Excerpts from Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance:
Dr. Stuart McGill wrote:Principle # 1 - Rapid contraction and then relaxation of muscle

I have measured muscle contraction in many top athletes. Their ability to rapidly contract muscle is astounding, but even more astounding is their ability to rapidly relax the muscle. Too many coaches train for speed with more strengthening approaches, actually slowing the athlete down. True speed requires rapid reciprocating limb motion. Rapid limb motion requires rapid transitioning between compliant muscles for speed but very active and stiff muscles for force and joint torque production. A muscle that cannot relax quickly will slow the athlete. ...

We have measured some of the great UFC mixed martial arts fighters recently who create a double pulse that results in impressive strike speed and power. World Champ Georges St Pierre shows the form (see figure 15.2). The first pulse initiates the foot or fist motion. Then some core muscles relax as speed increases while the hand/foot close the distance. Then the second pulse is timed to impact which stiffens the entire body. This is known as "effective mass" where the body is instantaneously turned to stone and the impact has the full weight of the fighter behind it. Rapid relaxation allows for a quick return to a defensive posture. ...

The professional golfer who has a relaxed backswing and initiation of downward club motion, but rapidly obtains super stiffness at ball impact, is the one who achieves the long ball (see figure 15.4). The one who tries to swing too hard with muscle activation too soon actually decreases speed of movement. This is why trying to "kill the ball" only results in a shortened distance. The axeman splitting wood uses the same technique. Muhammad Ali, Bruce Lee and Vasily Alexeyev all knew the secrets of Superstiffness. Understand the relationship between speed, compliance and stiffness and you will be achieving ultimate performance. ...

Steven J. Wong
Mar 14, 2013

The Striking Truth crew was fortunate during the 4.5 year production to capture the scientific testing of world renown spine and biomechanics expert Dr. Stuart McGill as he conducted his analysis of Georges St-Pierre and David Loiseau:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb8ShtGSLHk

Starting at 18:05, McGill explains the double pulse

Robin Black
Oct 27, 2017

Robin sits down for a hang with Dr. Stuart McGill. Dr. McGill is a professor emeritus, University of Waterloo, where he was a professor for 32 years. His laboratory and experimental research clinic investigated issues related to the causal mechanisms of back pain, how to rehabilitate back-pained people and enhance injury resilience and performance. Dr. Stu has rehabilitated countless athletes including a variety of combat sport athletes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qB_6kF83yY
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby everything on Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:29 pm

As a side note, Pavel has the strongest pound for pound “core” we have ever measured – his training works.


No idea what they are trying to describe, but this side note is not surprising. Also a side note to the side note, Pavel looks super skinny.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5208
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby robert on Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:31 am

Trick wrote:So TJQ(solo form) is not as Yoga. Although the Yoga we see today was created by Scandinavians and implemented into the physical training regime of the British armed forces...that’s why GrahameB is fascinated with it? 8-)

I think that is interesting. I watched a documentary on Yogananda, the guy who pretty much introduced yoga to the US in the 1920s. What he taught was basically meditation. The asanas that are so popular today was just stretching before meditating. Kind of like warm ups. IIRC the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali don't say much about asanas, it's mostly about developing the mind. FWIW.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Huajing
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby edededed on Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:16 pm

In that sense, both yoga and taijiquan have changed a lot in the last 100 years, especially the public versions of each.
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3956
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:38 am

The roots of modern yoga are not just Indian, they are also Scandinavian. What we now call yoga goes back a little over 100 years, and is a mix of Indian yoga and Scandinavian gymnastics / physical training techniques that were employed as British military exercise drills.The original Scandinavian source for modern yoga exercises come from Per Henrik Ling (1776-1839), founder of the Swedish gymnastic system. Following on from Ling's work, Niels Bukh (1880–1950) from Denmark, developed a system called Primitive Gymnastics, which “emphasized continuity of movement, rhythmic exercise, and intensive stretching to seek elasticity, flexibility, and freedom”. Bukh’s system became part of the official British army training program in 1906, and via the British Army, found it's way to India, where it came to occupy a central position in the Indian physical education scene in the early 1900s.
https://www.vikingmartialarts.com/draga
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2697
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby Yeung on Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:51 am

Windwalker: “ what we use in my work

"open close, empty full, swallow, spit, move with awareness

基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動"

Stretchy movement will improve awareness, and that is why most practitioners were told to stretch their muscles instead of shorten then.

Marvin8: Dr McGill and double-pulse

The problem with electromyography analysis is that it does not differentiate between eccentric and concentric muscle contraction, so it has the pattern of contract-relax-contract-relax instead of concentric-relax-eccentric-concentric. Shen Jiazhen suggested springiness in Taijiquan.

Trick: the root of Yoga

The root of Taijqiaun is from Daoyin (guided stretching) and breathing exercise and meridians dated back to the Warring States period (before 221 BC).
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:44 am

Stretchy movement will improve awareness, and that is why most practitioners were told to stretch their muscles instead of shorten then.


We may have different ideas about what moving with awareness means. Reading the post didn't find much if any similarity.
基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7673
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby TrainingDummy on Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:41 pm

robert wrote:I think that is interesting. I watched a documentary on Yogananda, the guy who pretty much introduced yoga to the US in the 1920s. What he taught was basically meditation. The asanas that are so popular today was just stretching before meditating. Kind of like warm ups. IIRC the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali don't say much about asanas, it's mostly about developing the mind. FWIW.


If you want to read about yoga postures (asana) in their traditional context, the Hatha Yoga Pradipika , Gheranda Samhita and Shiva Samhita are good places to start. Patanjali's Yoga Sutras are explicitly about Raja Yoga, not Hatha.
Garth S
User avatar
TrainingDummy
Great Old One
 
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:08 pm

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby robert on Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:52 pm

TrainingDummy wrote:
If you want to read about yoga postures (asana) in their traditional context, the Hatha Yoga Pradipika , Gheranda Samhita and Shiva Samhita are good places to start. Patanjali's Yoga Sutras are explicitly about Raja Yoga, not Hatha.

Thanks, I'll take a look.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Huajing
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby Trick on Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:12 am

Yeung wrote:

Trick: the root of Yoga

The root of Taijqiaun is from Daoyin (guided stretching) and breathing exercise and meridians dated back to the Warring States period (before 221 BC).

About Taijiquan I believe that to be the truth........But the modern Yoga postures, they are of Scandinavian gymnastics
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2697
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Taijiquan is a mind directed stretchy and springy exercise

Postby marvin8 on Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:00 am

Yeung wrote:Windwalker: “ what we use in my work

"open close, empty full, swallow, spit, move with awareness

基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動"

Stretchy movement will improve awareness, and that is why most practitioners were told to stretch their muscles instead of shorten then.

Open close, empty full, swallow, spit, involve both stretchy movement (eccentric) and muscle shortening (concentric). Practitioners are told to move with awareness during the whole movement, not just during the stretchy part (eccentric).

Yeung wrote:Marvin8: Dr McGill and double-pulse

The problem with electromyography analysis is that it does not differentiate between eccentric and concentric muscle contraction, so it has the pattern of contract-relax-contract-relax instead of concentric-relax-eccentric-concentric. Shen Jiazhen suggested springiness in Taijiquan.

Your quote to middleway:
Yeung wrote:You should have access to electromyography, mechanomyography, and time and motion equipment to differentiate the lengthening and shortening of muscles to ascertain movements that do not use brut force or concentric muscle contraction.

Since you are using scientific terms (e.g., non-concentric, etc.), can you provide data showing your tai chi movements do not use any concentric muscle contractions? Otherwise, your claims appear to be based on pseudoscience. None of the studies or references you posted show tai chi movements only use non-concentric contractions.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Previous

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Francis and 12 guests